Chris Wynters is authentic af

ep10 Chris Wynters is authentic af

[00:00:00] I was walking through an airport with my friend and coworker, Micah, when he mentioned something from a book He had been reading that Gen X was the only generation so overly concerned with being authentic with the concept of selling out. Not that authenticity as a desirable human quality isn’t a thing.

But authenticity to the core as a hill to die on in a field of strangers was really a thing. In one of my favorite podcasts, 60 songs that explained the nineties, the host, Rob, is talking about this in multiple episodes, one about Green Day’s Basket case, and another in a conversation with Courtney. Love.

That Courtney love about Nirvana’s, smells like Teen Spirit and the nineties with its volcanic explosion of grunge and indie and bands like those ones with iconic front men, like those ones were riddled with the weight of what a sellout was. Yeah, I had to use air quotes around sellout. I won’t get [00:01:00] into it.

This isn’t a podcast about that. But in that airport, Micah, and I totally understood. We’re old enough to see ourselves shoulder to shoulder with millennials, gen Z. We get it. They’re right. Wayne’s World was my favorite movie in 1992, and Mike Meyer’s character got up and walked off the set of his own indie basement cable TV show.

Once the network bought it, changed it, and rather than be considered a sellout, he left. Nobody cares about a sellout anymore. We wouldn’t have influencers if we did. But authenticity, we still seem to be holding court over authenticity. The more fabricated our surroundings become, the more important his value becomes.

Our guest today is Chris Wynters and Chris’s career. He is fronted a very successful indie band captain tractor from the nineties who continue to play and if he happened to attend an in between oil hockey game or a CFL game somewhere. You’ve probably heard the last Saskatchewan Pirate, and you didn’t even know it.

He has been the [00:02:00] executive director for Alberta Music at Provincial Music Association, and he’s currently the manager for acclaimed band the Dead South and for singer songwriter Nyssa. I’ve known Chris in all of those roles, wearing all of those hats, and he is the same exact guy in every situation, in every conversation.

By Chris’s own admission. It doesn’t matter in this business how hard you sell it. If it isn’t real and doesn’t connect with someone in a real way, they ain’t buying it. Authenticity still matters perhaps more than ever. My name is Glen Erickson. This is almost famous enough. Thank you for spending your time with us.

This is Chris Winters.

Glen Erickson:

thank you [00:03:00] Chris, for joining me and right off the bat, when I first started iterating this, idea of mine to actually dip my foot into this large pool of podcasting, uh, you were the guy I went to.

You were the guy I talked to. I sounded off to, built ideas, conceived of a method of us doing it together. went ahead and did it on my own and, and this is a thing I always thought we’d have fun doing together, so I am extremely appreciative.

A, that you were not offended or hurt and, and b, that even beyond that, that you’d be willing and excited to come and join me and be a guest and talk about your career and stuff.

Chris Wynters: Well, I think first of all, Glen, um, I think the, the, the feeling I had when I started, especially seeing you, on this thing in a real way, like when I started to see, you know, graphic show up on my Instagram feed, it was a sense of relief to be honest. Like, I just don’t know if I would’ve had any bandwidth speaking of bandwidth to, uh,

to handle it.

Anyway, uh, congrats on [00:04:00] getting this thing off the ground, Glen.

Glen Erickson: Well, I appreciate that a whole bunch and appreciate you a lot.

Chris Wynters:

Glen Erickson: So I wanna lay the same thing I do with most people I talk to. I love just laying the groundwork of your career

and I’ve known you for long enough to have gotten a great set of diverse stories, which, uh, I’ve always loved and enjoyed. And I just think that you have such an incredible wide view on what this entire life looks like. So, uh, there was a part of me though, bud, that thought about us having a conversation in reverse.

instead of chronologically like I do with a lot of people. So actually I’m gonna start there, but first I’m gonna give like the flyover ’cause I have to make an assumption. Everybody doesn’t know what I know. So, Chris Wynters career,

since the nineties had like three facets of, main character energy, which was your, your band, which was kind of the beginning stuff of Captain Tractor. and then you had a long leg where you sort of moved into actually working in the [00:05:00] industry as the, uh, executive director of Alberta Music, the Provincial Music Association.

And then you’ve embarked on a career, you know, with a company. That is carving, you know, a pretty significant, part of work. At least work into the Canadian music and international landscape really with six shooter, six shooter records in a couple of capacities. So those, when I look, even someone knowing you as well, feel like these sort of main pivot parts, of a career.

But in between that you’ve got like, all kinds of cool accomplishments in the theater world, which is part of your first loves and, writer, actor, writer director. I think you’ve probably done all the things. You’ve probably done the lights and you’ve done the sound engineering on some things and you’ve scored and.

Chris Wynters: Never night lights. Glen. Never lights, but

Glen Erickson: Oh, good. Okay.

definitely the scoring as well, the music part of it. I know. And, uh, and then you opened a studio, you built a studio in your backyard and were a big part of production and recording [00:06:00] for a lot of Alberta music artists, especially for a significant period of time, which is also, you know, a career to itself for a lot of people.

So, and I’ve probably missed a handful of related industry thi things maybe in,

Chris Wynters: well. It’s pretty

Glen Erickson: okay.

Chris Wynters: Yeah.

Glen Erickson: Okay.

Chris Wynters: I

Glen Erickson: What.

Chris Wynters: it all as just like, how did I, how did I pay the bills, right? Like, you know, I, I, I actually went, it all started as like, I went to, you know, decided I wanted to go to, well, I had rock bands when I was in high school and stuff, so I was into that.

And then I was gonna go to the music program at MacEwen in Edmonton, and I accidentally did a couple plays in Grand Prairie, Alberta where I was growing up. And, uh, one of the directors from the theater program at MacEwen said, you should go into theater. So I went, sure. Okay. It was just kind of like, you know, I kind of, I think that’s always been. What I’ve been about is just kind of like for opportunities and seeing, um, you know, seeing what’s possible. And then, I don’t know, figuring out how to, I, it’s always sort of figuring out how can I live in this space? And, uh, so I, you [00:07:00] know, I did, I did go to theater school. I did come outta theater school.

I did work as an actor and, you know, got my equity card and had a film agent in Calgary and did films and, theater. And then I started this band, well, I had a band called the Braven Foolish before Captain Tractor that I started with. Scott Peters from, uh, who’s my, been my partner in music for 35 years. and I started this rock band. And then, know, that merged into Captain Tractor, kind of back extently. We, we were sick of taking ourselves seriously as a rock band. So we started a, a silly band for free beer. And of course, I. soon as you’re being authentic and having fun, that’s when an audience develops.

And all of a sudden we were called Captain Tractor and we had a record and we’d sold, you know, 5,000 units of this record. And, uh, it was all of a sudden went, oh my God, I guess I’m guess I’m gonna follow this path for a while. And then, you know, captain Tractor did six years of really serious touring, like 150 to 200 shows a year for six years all over the world. Uh, we sold, [00:08:00] I don’t even know, tens of thousands of records including East De Sson, which was, uh, a gold record in the nineties. And, uh, you know, we all, we built homes and had families and, you know, bought cars and stuff all from selling records and playing shows. So, you know, like we weren’t super famous or anything, but we, uh, we were almost famous enough, Glen, that’s what we

Glen Erickson: Oh, I love it. So perfect.

Chris Wynters: No, we

Glen Erickson: Okay.

Chris Wynters: you know, we were able to do it. We were able to travel around and all over the place, you know, and have a good

Glen Erickson: Okay, so I’m gonna do this differently just because you and I just always have organic conversation and I. I don’t feel some need that I have to, hold a timeline or some version to tell a good story with you. So we started chronologically anyhow, so this is perfect. But because you’ve already said two things that I want to dig into with you, Chris, so I’m gonna make sure I try to remember them.

the first one I love is you said, you know, there was somebody at the school who was [00:09:00] like, you should try theater, and so you did. And like you said, you’ve always been a person who’s looking for opportunity. So this is an interesting factor of how people, I think, not just in our industry, in music, but in a lot of places in general industries.

A lot of us, when we’re discovering either our likes, also our passions even to that level or just the things we’re good at because the, everyone tosses the passion word around these days. Do what you’re passionate about. Most of us just are trying to figure out what we’re good at, especially when we’re in our younger years.

and if somebody sees it and recognizes it, don’t you think it often feels like a huge open door and that’s why you walk through it and that’s how you get there. Is that sort of how that felt for you? And I’m, I guess what I’m wondering is, did it feel like you were going after those roles or did the things you were doing just land you in a place where someone either made a suggestion or opened a door, if you know where I’m kind of getting at with that.

Chris Wynters: I think, yeah, I, you know, when [00:10:00] a, when an opportunity is presented like that, yeah. When you’re young and, and, uh, you’re trying to figure it out, it, it’s, know, you, you’re not sure when you’re in your twenties and your early twenties and you’re outta high school and you’re trying to go, what am I gonna do now? yeah. If somebody comes along and says, you should try doing this. That’s a, that’s a really good, uh. Indication of what direction you should go in. And, uh, I, I always jumped in like a hundred percent into everything. You know, I really, I was really set. I was gonna go to do my master’s degree in acting at York University in Toronto, and then Captain Tractor took off, you know, and, I, you know, called up the school to say, Hey, could I get a year? you know, check in with you guys next year if I want to do this master’s program next year? And, and they’re like, sure. And then I don’t think I ever call them back, and every time, one of those doors has opened up, it’s always been, you know, I, I always think about that.

The studio was the thing like that. I always, I’ve been recording music since I was 16. I had a, a. Quarter inch, eight track reel to reel deck that I bought with like every penny I had when I was a young guy. And I [00:11:00] recorded lots and lots of terrible songs for, for five years on that. But it was really lovely.

And I still have that debt tape deck, but like when, know, we got into recording, we made so many records with Captain Tractor and in that process of making those records, I learned about engineering sound. And you know, coupled with the experience I had on recording my own songs and opened this recording studio with James Murdoch.

And then we did that for a while and that was really fun. We produced 30 or 40 records over five years in that space. And, uh, some that I’m really, really proud of. you know, I still go back and listen to that I think are great records. You know, some that, know, paid the bills for sure and will never disclose which or which, but, um,

Glen Erickson: That’s what makes you gentle. Good for you.

Chris Wynters: And then, you know, and then the Alberta music job came up and that was kind of like, you know, with James and my partnership in the studio, you know, I tended towards executive producing things and sort of putting the bands together and then trying to figure out what each artist was gonna do after, and maybe try and make [00:12:00] connections for them with, you know, labels or with agents or whatever.

And it was kind of a thing, you know, I remember the job, posting came up and Murdoch came into my, into the studio and said, Hey, you’d be really good at this job. And I was like, oh, way. Gimme a break. No. and then over the course of a couple days, I was like, whoa. Hey, wait a minute. This is kind of an interesting You know, at the, at the time, you know, I, I was working in my backyard in a studio and getting paid. And, and, you know, writing shows and still acting and doing, you know, I’d never, I’d never been in a boardroom really, except if it was used for like a, an audition for a film or something like that.

Glen Erickson: Yeah.

Chris Wynters: um, the idea of going in and having an office and working and having staff and doing all this kinda stuff just seemed like this sort of going to the moon or something like that. So I was like, yes. And I, I also thought, hey, if I can connect, you know, people with, from the studio, uh, to the outside world of the greater music business, uh, you know, maybe this is a thing I could do. And, and also, you know, my own band Captain Tractor had had some success, [00:13:00] so could take some of those, some of the knowledge I had from that and kind of maybe get that out to the membership of Alberta music.

And lo and behold that, you

Glen Erickson: Yeah,

Chris Wynters: harder than getting, uh, elected, you know, prime Minister to get that job pretty much at the time. So it was

Glen Erickson: well, I mean it was, we’ve talked obviously personally and I just think it’s interesting the way you just sort of set that whole piece up, by the way, which was, I was doing this and so when it came around I was interested and what you connected was I was doing a thing where I knew a bunch of people and I had some experience and I really enjoyed connecting all of those pieces and those people together.

Which, it feels like the way you just described it was a bit of an undersell, if I can be honest, Chris, like at the time, I remember my exact words in a boardroom with an actual board who was working on who to hire when it comes down to the final people was,

I wanted a person in that leadership role who was great in the room. That’s literally the term I [00:14:00] used over and over. I said, Chris Wynters is great in the room. And I, I was less concerned about somebody who knew how to cross their t’s and dot their i’s on grant applications and, run some local programming really well.

We could find other people to do that, but I was really interested in growth through. Like vision and leadership and I thought you had all those qualities and you sort of slightly alluded to them in talking about yourself there.

Chris Wynters: that.

Glen Erickson: but I want, yeah, I wanna amplify them. ’cause those were really significant qualities that you had, which I think landed you that job.

yeah, so obviously you pick those up through some of these things over the years.

Chris Wynters: of like, like thinking about what like, you know, if you think about that, you know, where I was at the time, you know, it was like, 40 years old and kind of like, okay, what am I gonna do now? And, uh, it presented itself in the idea, like you’re saying, like, like, okay, I live in Alberta.

I’ve lived and worked out of Edmonton, Alberta my whole life. I love the city, I love the province. [00:15:00] The idea of, like, I always enjoyed Calgary and my band Captain Track, I always did really well in Calgary. And so I, I spent some time in Calgary doing theater too, and, and always enjoyed my time down there. And I just thought, wow, it would be really fun to like. Travel around and, and, uh, and try and promote this province and its music industry. And the idea of the international, possibilities of connecting artists to an international, audience was something that I found really exciting too. And it just, it’s really amazing how, you know, many of those connections I made, even probably in the first like, you know, year at Alberta Music are still the people that I’m connected with now still every day, you

Glen Erickson: Yeah, I mean, it feels like there’s not really an education for most of this. Like you don’t go to school But a lot of our roles that evolve in the music business come from, having a great sense of building relationships and making good connections with people and then having the foresight to be active and get, To get shit done. Let’s just say [00:16:00] like, um, there’s a lot of people who just talk and sit on bar stools and then there’s people who get shit done what part of that is true for you? What, what part of that has sort of run true throughout your career?

Chris Wynters: yeah. I, I say relationships are everything. In anything you’re in. I think it’s all about relationships. I, I think of my job, or I’ve always thought of my job in whatever role that was at the time as being, connecting with people. I’ve always thought about it as being, building up this, you know, international gang of friends.

You know, like, and, um, I think that, that, so like, I never think about going into a room and it’s networking. It’s about,

Glen Erickson: Yeah.

Chris Wynters: like, oh my God, I met this thing and all my friends are here. Like, and oh, I wanna meet some new friends. Like, it’s never, it’s really honestly, like, there’s no, it’s like, there’s nothing that happens in anything that you can’t make anything happen. you can only a conduit for something that’s gonna happen. like, you can’t like force an artist onto an agent that isn’t gonna like the, the artist. It’s never gonna [00:17:00] work.

Glen Erickson: Yeah.

Chris Wynters: you can do is kind of present the artist to the agent. And if they’re like, Hey, you know, hey, I think this would be a good fit for you. And if they, if they’re into it, they’re into it, and then, then that’s a relationship and that works. But, you know, my point is that I think the more of that sort of knowledge and the more people that you get to know over your life, sometimes I, oh, I met an agent like 15 years ago and all of a sudden I see this artist that’s like, oh, I think that ar that agent that I knew 15 years ago would love this artist. And so it’s just like that kind of stuff, it builds up over the years. And, and, um, I think that’s why this sort of, as you get older and, and more experienced, part of it is that you’re older and more experienced. And part of it is that just you’ve had, access to more and more people over the years and more and more relationships over the years.

Glen Erickson: Yeah. I do think though the maturity, the sort of the growth from experience though, is captured in the way you’re able to express that, which is, basically asserting that the work you do right now might have fruit 15 years [00:18:00] later. the work you’re doing, especially when it’s relational work, does seem to be like you’re playing the long game, like you’re investing in the future so often, not just now. I also caught a really great hint and, and point about authenticity.

When you say, I’m not at a networking event to network, I’m here to like, see some old friends and make some new ones. which, you know, could be just a funny way to spin it unless it comes across as authentically as the way you just said it, which is that that’s really what it is and what it’s really about.

Chris Wynters: I, I mean, you could sound pretentious, like, I mean, it does sound kind of like, oh yeah, right, Chris. Like, that’s right. But I mean, but I, but the truth is that if I’m at a thing and I don’t feel like going to this networking thing or whatever it is, I it won’t be successful. I won’t, it won’t be good. you can’t, you can only be authentic. I think if you, if, if you’re not authentic, It’s obvious and, um, things don’t happen, you know, and it’s, it’s, it’s, I don’t know. I mean, maybe, I think [00:19:00] maybe when I was young, I would go into these things. I remember going to like Canadian Music Week when I was in, you know, in a, in a rock band when I

Glen Erickson: Yeah.

Chris Wynters: mid twenties.

And I’d be like, I’m not gotta do this and I gotta do this. And it just doesn’t ever work. And part of that’s ’cause you’re young and nobody cares, and part of that’s because you just don’t, you’re obviously just trying to, to work the room or whatever that is. Right? And, and, um, uh,

Glen Erickson: And you don’t know how. Absolutely. You don’t know how, but you are filled with some zealousness, uh, to try to make it happen, right? like you’ve been in so many of these rooms, and it would be great to hear you talk about through your career what some of those important rooms that you might end up in are and what you’ve learned, if is that too big and why?

Chris Wynters: like, I started, when I started out, I remember one of my first trips, I went on for Alberta music was to Folk Alliance and it was in Toronto. It was like one year when it was in Toronto. Usually it’s in the States, it was in, it was in Montreal this year. But, um, so I went to Montreal and I remember like, [00:20:00] sort of si looking at some of the things and I was like, oh man, like there’s a folk DJs thing going on.

And I was thinking about folk DJs like, wow, that sounds kind of cool. thinking that it meant there were gonna be spinning some vinyl in the lobby and it was gonna be like, and it was gonna be like some scratching and stuff. And then I went to this thing thinking it was gonna be this groundbreaking, progressive like thing that I’d never heard of.

Folk. Folk, dude. Geez, that’s so cool. And, um, and then I realized, oh, and I just walk in and it’s a bunch of like. 70-year-old dudes with beards and it’s like, oh, they’re the DJs from like, all these NPR stations. Um, now I get it. So like, I just wanted to point in like, it’s like, like you kinda learn as you go and sometimes it’s like you just, it’s trial and error and um, it’s fun. But I guess, I guess my point with that is that it’s like, I still feel like I’m learning like that. Like when I go into a new space [00:21:00] or there’s a bunch of people that I don’t know, like it really is like, it takes time to kind of sort out who, okay, what are the politics of this space and who’s, you know, what, what’s everybody want, what’s everybody’s agenda?

That kind of stuff. But, um, I guess, you know, it’s been team building. I said, you know, earlier in this chat that, um, I still connected to some of the people I first met. You know, I. 15 years ago and, and the first days at Alberta Music, not quite 15 years ago. But, um, and that’s true. You know, and, and everything sort of, you know, it’s all about team building and talking about like the dead South now.

you know, there’s another artist, so, you know, like I met that, I met them for the first time in my Alberta Music days. You know, like they,

Glen Erickson: Mm-hmm.

Chris Wynters: where, you know, when, when Alberta Music was doing a, an event at South by Southwest Say, or The Great Escape in Brighton, England, or at Reaper Bond or wherever, we would off and partner with the other music industry associations and. Breakout West, so Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, [00:22:00] bc sometimes the territories. And very often, at least through the first couple of years, we would partner with Saskatchewan, with Sask music. And, uh, we had this brand at events like South by Southwest called How the West was one that, our friend Derek Bachman kind of started up.

And so I remember meeting the, the Dead South guys the first time at one of these things. And they were just on a, on a bill. So there were, you know, three bands from Alberta and three bands from Saskatchewan, and they were one of the bands. And I thought that, oh, these guys are cool. And, you know, you get to know them and you see them at different things around the world.

And then they become sort of like, you know, one of your like conference buddies you might have a beer with at a thing. So when it turned out that they were looking for a new manager, you know, it just, it was like, Hey, I already knew these guys. And, and um, know, we. At six shooter thought it would, you know, they’d be, they were a really good fit and they were already kind of interested in six shooter as a label and all that.

So, but I, my point is that it’s like, you know, even that relationship come about because a, it’s, it is, it’s all a long game, Glen, all of it, you know, like, it’s really hard. Like, I like [00:23:00] looking for other management clients, you know, like I’m, I’m constantly looking and it’s incredible how, you know, you can go into a basement, you know, pub venue in Northeast London in short itch, you know, see some artists playing on a stage in front of 50 people and go up to the bathroom and go, Hey, you were great.

That’s great. You know, what’s, what’s your situation? They go, oh, you know, just check my Insta. And then, you know, you look at their Insta, like say, oh my God, they’re signed to a label in New York and their management is this huge management. It’s like, uh, it’s really, really, uh, a lot, you know? the, the, the teams are coming together really early these days, you know, like things are happening.

Really, the development of artists happens, starts happening really early.

the rooms are, are, are forever changing, but they’re always kind of similar people in them.

Glen Erickson: Yeah. Well, I mean, that’s a great thread to tie. I was gonna ask, do you think that perception, just from that anecdote of, this band was had, it has a whole machine behind it, but it gave you the appearance of an up and comer, right. That this is at the stage of their career where they might be [00:24:00] looking to build a team.

They’re obviously really good and they’re, you know, have a great response from the people in the room. So it’s worth that conversation and then, it generated a surprise.

do you think the surprise has anything to do that you and I are of the same, age range and demographic that we might have established? These sort of just versions of bias that are hard to, maybe they just come out where we just make assumptions based on the way we knew it always used to be

Chris Wynters: Oh, I see what you’re saying. Like you’re like, you just assume that ’cause somebody’s playing in a basement in shortage, that they don’t have a team yet. Like

Glen Erickson: Yeah. ’cause I’ve had the same experience, Chris, I’ve gone to a show or a club and, and saw the opener or, and I assume they’re unknown. And they’re not unknown or even a more classical one right now that happens to me literally every week is like my daughter, whom we share music together all the time now.

And She’ll, and she gets excited when she thinks she’s in on the ground floor with somebody. So the other day she said, I discovered this new artist who [00:25:00] like, looks like they’re just kind of up and coming and it’s, they’re really cool. And then I went and looked at their Spotify and they had four songs with over a million streams.

And I just said to her, I’m like, in the world I live in with quote unquote unknown up and coming artists, they, not hardly any of ’em have over one song with a million streams yet. And it’s not like a million streams is. Buying them a house, obviously, but I’m just saying it’s in that scale and maybe I’m looking at that wrong again because of old information or old bias, but the world’s changed that way and I, I catch myself in it quite often.

Chris Wynters: Yeah. Well, I, I think you know it, you never know, right? Like, and there’s also artists who still come across sometimes that have already, that, you know, are, have gone quite far and have a following and are doing quite well that don’t have any team. So, I mean, it’s, it really is like, you know,

Glen Erickson: Hmm.

Chris Wynters: in Canada, I find it a little bit more like You might find artists that don’t have teams yet that are, that are doing quite well, maybe not with streaming, but with, like, building a [00:26:00] live, live business in that.

Glen Erickson: Hmm.

Chris Wynters: uh, in terms of like, you know, with the Dead South, they did already have a team when we came on board. We just were more, you know, we, we just kind of came in as, somebody that could help them get from where they were at, which is, you know. guys, four guys and a, a sound guy in a van, uh, driving around to, you know, where they’re now, which is, you know, guys and eight crew in a, a bus and a, and a semi-truck going everywhere. And, uh, you know, that that took a year and a half to go from the, like happened really fast. It was already on, there was already a trajectory, but I don’t think, you know, they, they definitely needed more of a team to kind of get to the next level.

And I think we came and kind of fulfilled that for them. But, uh, you know, in terms of them, you know, their first team member was, was an agent in Canada. And I think that’s something I’m seeing more and more these days is that the very often the first, the first team member that’s not inside the band, you know, often, like I. Somebody in the band [00:27:00] is going to act as a manager. Maybe several of the artists in the band are gonna be managers of different skills. That’s certainly how things were with Captain Tractor when we started. Uh, and then, you know, that’s the agent, you know, because the live business is kind of the first thing that makes sense to build.

Glen Erickson: Yeah.

Chris Wynters: you know, it, it, it, it’s playing in front of people is kind of the, the, that’s the first most important aspect to music, I think. And then recording it and, and, and getting the recorded music out is

Glen Erickson: Yeah.

Chris Wynters: thing. but I, I, I kind of personally work. I mean, I know it doesn’t have to work like that, but personally I understand the business more an artist has a live business you know, that that works in tandem with the, with the recording selling recordings and, and, uh, and, and so I, that’s sort of where I gravitate and I know what the dead South one. the opportunity came out to manage them, was like, I totally get this band. You know, like they’re a roots, don’t like that word, but like, but they’re kind of, they’re, they’re a acoustic, you know, fun, live band. [00:28:00] yeah, and we, and, and Captain Tractor had been like that.

And, and literally like the, the first shows, and, you know, when we took, we started working with them in, December of 2017 and they had a tour, coming together at that point, a US tour in March of 2018. So the first real tour that we worked on them with was a US tour down the west coast of the US And all the venues were like a lot of the same venues that Captain Tractor had played, you know, two, 300 cap venues.

And it’s like, I know all these venues, it’s gonna be great. Well, the shows went on sale and they all sold out in like 20 minutes. And I was like, okay, this is, this is not like Captain Tractor. And at that point it diverged, we, we upgraded all the venues and, uh, it, it, most cases they didn’t end up playing any of the venues that Captain Tractor had been playing.

Glen Erickson: Oh wow.

Chris Wynters: it was like a, it instantly was kind of like the whole thing was already moving in a direction and we just sort of throw fuel onto the fire and make it, uh, go faster and, build more

Glen Erickson: I mean, we’ve, we’ve alluded to a [00:29:00] few interesting things. I just think about the difference between the way things used to be done and the way things are now in the industry. And you’ve had, I think, the privilege in the span of time that you’ve been doing this from band to business like this to see a lot of those changes.

Right? I mean, so your bands, ironically that you’re full-time, mostly full-time here. I’m pretty sure they take up all your time managing the Dead South. Uh, who people should definitely go and check out if they haven’t in their incredible live show. so, you know, I, I’ve, I have trouble pigeonholing genre, which is fine.

I mean, they don’t want to be pigeonholed genre wise anyhow by me. But, there’s familiarity to people from various adjacent things, right? So there’s the Stompy four guys can just sit with their acoustic instruments together upfront and you know, mainstream influenced music fans would feel like Mumford and Sons adjacent, Versus, you know, people who are more in the folk background probably have a, a good handful of people that they [00:30:00] could connect the stylings to. When I went to see the show that you invited me to, it definitely felt like more in the outlaw country, folky country kind of

like in the, in the pure folk sort of history, right?

Chris Wynters: are very like you know, like it’s, it really is, when you cut it down, it’s, it’s legitimate bluegrass, you know, like they don’t, you know, they, they take, they take the craft of songwriting and they take the, and they’re big fans of bluegrass that come from that whole world. not to totally speak for them, I, I don’t, I just in terms of their, their artist history and stuff like that.

But, you know, there are, there are four guys from Regina Saskatchewan that, you know, they decided to, their first time they played was at an open mic, it

Glen Erickson: Yeah.

Chris Wynters: fun.

And their, their big aspiration was to play, you know, a gig at the exchange someday, you know, in Regina, like the venue. And,

Glen Erickson: Yeah.

Chris Wynters: you know, and I, I kind of understand that, like, ’cause the same, you know, our aspirations with Captain Tractor were literally to like, get free beer at Mickey Finn’s on Sunday nights.

[00:31:00] You know, like, like, so I kind of get, going back to authenticity again. Like sometimes it’s this, like, you just have something that just, it’s, it is authentic. Like it, it works in an open mic situation and people go, Hey, this is really fun. I really like this. And not that I was at any of those shows, but I have seen a lot of footage of some of those early shows of them doing it in the, you know, playing in people’s basements and stuff like that. It looks, you know, they’re playing some of the same songs they’re playing now. Live and, uh, in front of, know, 6,000 people in Prague. just headlining shows, you know, 6,000 people in Prague, not a festival show. You know, like this is the, it’s, it’s really wild to see, you know, that authenticity to an international audience.

And, and, um, I don’t know what it is. It’s about, you know, it’s about branding, it’s about, it’s about being commitment, it’s about artistry. It’s all these things. And I, you know, these guys are just so, and they’re very hard workers. But that’s definitely the where Captain Tractor started. You know, like let’s make a band and there’s six of us in the band and there’s a sound person [00:32:00] and We’ll play a show and you’ll get a thousand bucks for this show and 2000 bucks for that show, and then 50 bucks in the case of beer for that show. everything goes in a pot. And how much money do you need to live? Alright, I need 500 bucks a month to live. And so everybody pays. It’s kind of like we had this collective, and, and that’s, it’s just the ethic of it.

It’s not like, I mean, that’s not how things are working now, but I think that there’s still the idea that that’s closer to what a big company is like oh, I play a show for 2000 bucks and everybody puts 400 bucks in their pocket. And that’s, you know, and that’s it. You know, the idea that you’re kind of growing something and building something, it, definitely the, you know, how how do you get from point A to point B that, that, you know, you have to sort of be growing the nest egg.

And I guess, uh, I’m not sure how I got onto this from what we were talking about, but, um,

Glen Erickson: You, you’re talking about Captain Tractor, this was the nineties, right? This is the mid to later nineties or the later, later nineties maybe. but

Chris Wynters: in early nineties, but like

Glen Erickson: Okay. Yeah. Early. Yeah. So

Chris Wynters: Yeah.

Glen Erickson: a, a very sort [00:33:00] of different culture, economy of all of these pieces and time. But I mean that, that whole version of a band that goes on a road and sort of, develops their chops saying gains in audience, Alongside of what, like Gen Xers who were sort of running wild at that time had one of their truest and deepest, principles was authenticity. So it’s not surprising that you’re talking about that. Right? Um, ’cause rock and roll was all about like being extremely real and, and not being a sellout in a number of the sub genres.

It was very high importance. but especially that I’m gonna go on the road, right? I’m gonna build an audience the real way and only the real ones will survive that way. Um, I’m just wondering if like, you literally lived it and I, and I think it’s fun because if people don’t know and they need to check it out, like Chris and Captain Tractor.

You’re currently bringing some of those old days back to life and did some rerecording [00:34:00] of original recordings and are gonna be playing some shows. So that obviously probably feels a little fresh for you right now. Pulling back on some of the memories. So I’m curious, what can you tell people what it was like in the nineties for more than just six of us?

Jumped in a van and thought, Hey, someone’s gonna pay us, you know, a case of beer and 50 bucks, you know, or the next guy’s gonna pay us a grand, it’s the same thing. Let’s go do it. What? What if you can like, maybe just, I unpack

Chris Wynters: Sure. I mean,

Glen Erickson: more.

Chris Wynters: I’m a bit facetious in saying that we started it for free beer. I, I, that’s the truth. But really was kind of like, it really was fun and it was really important to us to, to have fun and, and, um, first of all, and I, and not, you know, sound like a, you know, 56-year-old gen, old Gen Xer.

I’m like, I’m one of the oldest in the Gen X. You know, I think I got three years within the Gen X, uh, generation. But, um, know, grew up in punk rock, grew up, grew up the west coast of [00:35:00] Canada in the punk rock scene in Victoria with bands like No Means No and DOA and um, bands. So from over in Seattle like. Like the Minuteman, oh, not Minuteman in the, there were, there were Minneapolis, but like, um, like, uh, the Yumen and the Young, fresh Fellows, all these bands and, and there was a lot of DIY going on then, and a lot of, you know, like lots of cool things happening. You know, people, I remember coming to a show in Edmonton in 1986, uh, to see 10,000 maniacs and, and, uh, junior Gone Wild was opening for 10,000 Maniacs, and they were in Edmonton Band.

And I, I, you know, and they had a record like on Vinyl for sale, and the idea that be, uh, I guess I, I, I was in this thing. I never really, punk rock was not the kind of music I played, And so seeing a band like Junior and Wild Play a show, and they weren’t punk rock, and, and it was, it was, they were independent.

And, uh, that sort of blew my mind. And it was years later that, you know, uh, but [00:36:00] anyway, we, the one thing I would say is that. I think that sort of 1991 to 2000, maybe 1999, 2000 was literally the golden age of independent bands releasing their own music. Like it really was the time when you had this sort of Venn diagram of all these sort of important things.

If there’s, you know, media, the value of music, like, I’m trying to think of all these things. They all sort of the spot in the middle of the Venn diagram. We had, you know, maybe we didn’t have the internet like it is today, but, you know, captain Tractor was the first band to have a website. So, you know, you think about the advantages you have over, you know, and not everybody’s on the internet, so people don’t know that.

But the people that are are into it. So we were able to sort of use the burgeoning internet through all these university kids across Canada in this like. Network of people, of fans that would like, do stuff like petition, much music to play our videos [00:37:00] and things like that. Like nobody had heard of us and, and, uh, we had this sort of underground following.

So, so, and you know, people would buy a CD for 15 bucks from you you could record it for, you know, you can make a record for 10 grand or 20 grand and, but you could just turn that money around and like, you know, we put our first record out land in 1994. We pressed a thousand copies of it. We sold a thousand copies in like nine days.

So we pressed 2000 copies and we sold those 2000 copies in like 20 days. And then all of a sudden we were at Christmas of 1994 sold 4,000 copies of this record. And we had, you know, 50 grand in the bank. You know, we could have all bought a, you know, I mean that’s, anyway, uh, we could have bought a house, but, um, you know, we didn’t, anyway, we, you know, I don’t, I I just sort of put, putting that into today’s perspective.

It’s just not, it’s just not the, the math isn’t the same, you[00:38:00]

Glen Erickson: It’s not possible. Yeah.

Chris Wynters: it’s not possible. So, but, so by the time, so yeah, we’re, we’re putting out our, so in 1995 we put out a record called East of Edson, which, you know, we’d learned a lot from the first record. It was, you know, the first record has got a lot of, lot of flaws, put it mildly, uh, but, you know, there’s some great moments on it.

But we were ready, we were so excited to get in the studio to make this second record. And, um, we had a year of, of really heavy touring and a whole bunch of songs that were really road tested and, and, um, you know, you get, you put this record out. I remember Up The Hill was the first single from East of Edson, and I wrote that song. Just before Land, the first album came out and we first played up the Hill, which was the first single from the second album at the album release Party for Land. And we knew instantly that it was gonna be, it was like the kind of hit song that we wished was on the first record. we had a long, we were really excited to make the second record.

So anyway, the, so East of Edson came out and we had in that time, built up all this [00:39:00] infrastructure. for instance, we had, this wonderful woman, Melanie Cheek, came out of the arts and cultural management program at McEwen and was working as, uh, doing her practicum with Captain Tractor in our office. We had a little office on hundred ninth Street, and, uh, what. Seemed like a good thing for her to do was, uh, oh, well we need to distribute these records. So she had, was like figuring out, okay, I’m going around the hmv. And then she just calling, you know, the HMV in Saskatoon and the hm v in Calgary and saying, Hey, can you take, you know, 20 of these, 20 copies of these and 20? And then they would, you know, they were selling and she was replacing them. And her practicum ended, you know, after eight or 10 weeks or whatever that was. And she’s like, Hey, you know, I could keep doing this for you guys. Like what if I just charged like, you know, two bucks a unit to you guys to put these into the stores?

And we said, sure. And she did that for a while and then she’s like, oh, you know, a few other artists want me to do this as well. Do you mind if I make this a business? And, uh, started Spirit River Distribution out of that, out of our office, and that became a factor recognized national distributor [00:40:00] of, of, of music in retail.

And so those kinds of things happened. we sold tens of thousands of copies of East of Edson. It, it was just a massive, you know, and then. Bought the farm, which was our third record that came out in 1997. We ordered 20,000 units to, to start, you know,

Glen Erickson: Right.

Chris Wynters: we had 20,000 units on a hu on a flat that showed up in front of our office.

Like it’s a, you know, the, this is, and, and we sold, you know, we sold all these records and we were making 10, $12 a unit on them. So that’s a

Glen Erickson: Yeah. Just to put that,

Chris Wynters: a bunch of 20 somethings to be making, you know,

Glen Erickson: yeah. And I mean, to put that in perspective about that showing up in your front doorstep. If I think back to what a box of a thousand. Would’ve looked, actually they came in five hundreds. So a thousand together would be like someone getting, for as many people can understand the current reference.

It would be like getting, well, if that’s a thousand, you said 20,000. So you, it’s like getting [00:41:00] 20 Hello Freshs delivered on a pallet to your front door. HelloFresh boxes, uh, of food would be sort of a sim, a similar size reference, which is really quite amazing. I remember being excited just the first time I ordered a thousand CDs and getting those boxes and cutting ’em open and, uh, and then crapping your pants about how to sell them.

But, two, two things like that I think are funny. One is, I just have to reference what you’re talking about, being the first on the internet, I built my first website, which is like what gave me my career for most of my life. But I built my first website in 1995 when it seemed nobody knew. I. How to build a website yet, and I figured that stuff out.

And similar to what you were saying, I’ll never forget, one of the first things I did was create a hypothetical band, uh, that I always wished I had at the moment, but I didn’t have anybody to play with. And I called it Sons of Ed because that’s what I had always wanted to call my, my band. And I made this whole thing up and I was getting messages from all around North America, because you’re right, so few people were [00:42:00] on it and the people that were, were so invested in being the first, first to market, so to speak, of discovering everything that was out there.

Uh, so that’s kind of funny. It made me think of when you were telling your little bit how I, uh, I, I was like, I have

Chris Wynters: Did people think it was real bad?

Glen Erickson: a hundred percent like, uh. I’m not joking when I say I might feel like I, I made as much buzz with that fake band as I’ve maybe made a buzz with anything else I’ve tried. Uh, I don’t think it, it felt like that at the time, but, yeah, I think that’s really cool and interesting.

Uh, I also think just the aspect you’re talking about of we did this and then we did this and then we did this and we just kept cutting it and growing it in the nineties, like you said, it was a golden age. Absolutely. But, you were definitely responding to the response that you were getting and I think, I love that idea of authenticity too, which, how everything seems to ever become something in the [00:43:00] music business is because I.

There’s an authentic response between someone who’s creating something and the people who want more of what they’re creating. And we hear all kinds of nasty bits that are about all the things in between that, whether it be like the people and the layers that are created and the people in the business who try to take advantage of that maybe.

And, and we’ve got all kinds of great stereotypes over the last decades and decades and decades of everything that happens around. And in between that authentic interchange, don’t you think between, you know, I wanna just really make the thing that represents me and that I wanna make and I find an audience for it, right?

Chris Wynters: the thing that I find right now that’s, it’s like everything’s a platform now. Everything’s a, tech, you know, it’s a tech and, and the tech always gets paid first. You know, like, what platform are we recording on here? You know, like, we’re on, we’re recording this podcast on a platform, and they’re, they’re getting their money, you know? [00:44:00] Um,

Glen Erickson: True.

Chris Wynters: I just, not, not to, not to sort of, are things that sort of going back to thinking about the difference between then and now. like there are things that I think about like. Sure. We were really successful in that model and we sold lots of CDs, physical CDs to people. And at the time, he thought about growth as being like, let’s conquer this city and then we’ll conquer that city and then we’ll

Glen Erickson: Yeah.

Chris Wynters: city and we’ll try and find like, you know, 200 people in each city to like our band and buy CDs.

And that was kind of the way, and I often think, you know, if we’d have, if we’d have the tools are there now, like I I, I think with Captain Tractor we would’ve been, we would’ve been really into TikTok and we would’ve been really, really into to video messaging people. We would’ve, like, we were into media before there was social media.

Like we, we had a, we had a newsletter that we sent out to thousands of people, four times a year that was called the [00:45:00] Captain’s Log. And it was funny and it was like little. Like, it was like a little, like a, it was set up like a little kind of zine kind of thing

Glen Erickson: Yeah.

Chris Wynters: and it cost us like, you know, like if you think about, you know, I think we had at the height of it, maybe three or 4,000 people on our mailing list, like physical mailing list. So if we did a, if we mailed out to all that at, you know, 40 cents for stamp and, you know, whatever it cost us to do the pre, like, it would, it cost us a couple thousand dollars every time we did a mail out. But it had a little cutout coupon thing on the back so you could order, you know, order some merch, order a T-shirt and da.

And so we would make, you know, five or $6,000 every time we put one of those things out. But I just think about like, that’s not very efficient. And one of the things that I see now, uh, is that. The fact that we’re still able to, you know, yeah, six shooters putting out our 30-year-old record, um, east of Betson, our gold record, uh, for the first time on vinyl.

Uh, it’s coming out in OC in April. part of the reason why we’re still able to play and, and people pay us money to do shows, and we still perform, you know, five or 10 times a year, more some years, [00:46:00] is because of Spotify and Apple Music. And, there’s something about those digital versions of those albums living on platforms that anybody in the world can access.

So if somebody goes, oh, what is this band? And then just look, they, they can go and like find and listen to every single thing you’ve ever recorded. Like that’s kind of cool in a lot of ways. Like I, I, you know, I wish that platforms paid artists fairly and I think that’s something that the industry is working towards.

And I think we will get there eventually. Hopefully, maybe I’m a little Pollyanna on that, but like, I, I do feel that it’s, I, I, I am an optimist, so I’m gonna, I’m gonna err on that side all the time. But

Glen Erickson: Good for you. That’s good.

Chris Wynters: that, that, that it’s really, you know, these platforms are also super useful. And I was just at, I was just at like a mother, mother show, uh, at Roger’s place, uh, in Edmonton last Saturday. And, uh, I mean, there’s a band, you know, there’ve been around 20 years and, and all of a sudden things take off for them on TikTok. [00:47:00] They’ve never played a arena, so they didn’t, never had a sold out

Glen Erickson: I was so surprised, but you’re right. That’s right.

Chris Wynters: right? It’s massive.

Glen Erickson: Yep.

Chris Wynters: a lot of opportunity to come from these, these platforms, you know.

Glen Erickson: And I, I guess that’s the other angle of the conversation. I’m interested in your take and your perspective. Again, having seen a number of the ways that people had to figure out as, well, let’s be honest, as technology is a primary driver of change over those 30 years that you’ve been doing a lot of this stuff.

so as we’ve watched change happen with technology platforms or how we connect that person who’s creating with an audience that wants what they’re creating, obviously the most recent ones is like, well, for you breaking out meant like you, it was you, you had to get in a bus, you had to do the legwork.

You had to create a newsletter. You had to, first of all go up and meet those people. The majority of them, probably by shaking hands at a show or something in a [00:48:00] city to obtain and get their mailing address, which there’s complete multimillion dollar machines built around just trying to like lead gen in today’s day and age and get people to give you their email address or something so you can send them things.

different world, different time.

Chris Wynters: code with

Glen Erickson: Yeah.

Chris Wynters: show and people are

Glen Erickson: Yeah.

Chris Wynters: win a free

Glen Erickson: Whereas you did that work manually and built a thing. So same but different and created the connection and created that opportunity for yourself, and to break out and to sort of like get known, like you had a different version of like, when do you kind of get over that?

First hump and then that second hump, like you were referencing it, like we sold this many CDs and then we had to keep reordering so that when you made the next record, you just started from 20, like that’s getting over a hump. And there’s been different versions along the way of what it looks like for when a band is actually in a career or in [00:49:00] that gray area of a career.

And I’m wondering, I would love your insight on, on that. I, I find it interesting. I’m wondering if other people would find it interesting, like you said, like maybe we could have bought a house with 50,000 in the nineties because we made that much money off of being able to sell physical product back then, which we can’t now.

And I remember a band called Lowest of the Low that I really loved mid nineties, and their first record was for a long time in Canada, the highest grossing. Independent record, quote unquote. They sold so many units of it that stood for quite a while. And, um, but I don’t know if they had a, I assumed they had a career, like from my eyes at the time, I just assumed this is their life, their career.

Maybe they weren’t. Right. So I’m wondering your insight and your perspective, over a couple of these phases, if I can think, like the late nineties versus the two thousands versus closer to now, how you’ve seen that grow and change.

Chris Wynters: Well, first of all, side note, uh, I think lowest to [00:50:00] low is the band I’ve seen more often than at any other band. I

Glen Erickson: Mm-hmm.

Chris Wynters: and every time I’ve seen them, with the exception once, was in Toronto. So just saying, I, I, I think I’ve seen them like over 30 times, 29 times in Toronto, probably 15 of those times at, at sneaky ds.

So there you

Glen Erickson: Well, callback. Callback. I saw them at the exchange in Regina multiple times, which you already referenced for the dead, so

Chris Wynters: come back through there a lot.

Glen Erickson: Yeah.

Chris Wynters: say the lowest low. Yeah, definitely. Like they sold a lot of records. I mean, think about the bare naked ladies who sold a lot of records like it was. That was what was going on back then. And then, you know, Lorena McKennan, like she was selling records on her own.

She, you know, she decided to shoot her, you know, record deal and sell records on her own. And she did, you know, all these people did really well because they didn’t, I think Lois Solo didn’t actually sign a record deal after that. anyway, the, the, the nineties to the two thousands to, I, I often say like, okay, so the math, if you do the basic math, this is

Glen Erickson: Yeah.

Chris Wynters: the bumper side of it.

First, know, the [00:51:00] basic math. Let’s just make it really super simple. You make a record for $10,000, you press a thousand CDs, you sell ’em for 10 bucks each to your friends. You make your $10,000 back, right? Like, that’s, that’s just the basic math. So then the Apple Music, you know, Napster comes in, the mp threes invented at the end, in the nineties, all of a sudden people are stealing music off the internet. are burning CDs for their friends at shows. I remember people coming up out to me saying, yeah, man, I burned like 80 copies for my friends of your record. I love it so much. And be like, oh my God. Anyway,

Glen Erickson: Asked one, did you ever get asked to sign a burned cd?

Chris Wynters: yes, and I

Glen Erickson: Yeah.

Chris Wynters: many of them. Yeah, yeah. But, um, but so, so then by the two thousands you’re like, okay, so say, say you can still make a record for $10,000. Well, the Apple Music model of like 9 99, uh, sale, you know, the sale of 9 99 for, for a, for an album on,

Glen Erickson: A download of an MP three. Yeah,

Chris Wynters: one. So, so you’re gonna get five bucks [00:52:00] from that.

So all of a sudden you’re, you gotta sell 2000 downloads. To make your $10,000 back,

Glen Erickson: yeah,

Chris Wynters: you’re gone as an independent band from Edmonton. You’ve gone from having to sell a thousand copies to 2000. Well, if you take that into the 2010s and the, you know, Spotify, apple Music streaming, you know, at 0 cents.

So you’re at, you know, you gotta stream your album to make your $10,000. It’s into millions, millions of streams.

Glen Erickson: yeah. Absolutely.

Chris Wynters: not gonna happen for an independent band. So,

Glen Erickson: and good luck.

Chris Wynters: of it.

Glen Erickson: Good luck making it for $10,000 in the 2020s.

Chris Wynters: for sure. Although, although, you know,

Glen Erickson: Uh,

Chris Wynters: make

Glen Erickson: I know.

Chris Wynters: at home. I mean, the technology, you know, arguably. You know, in order to make a really good record in the nineties, you needed to spend like 40 or $50,000. Really? we did do that. You know, like we, we did spend a lot more money on records [00:53:00] later in the nineties than we did in the early days.

But, um, but the good side of now, I think, and what, starting to happen or, you know, I, what I see bands that, that are successful, it’s sort of about, you know, it used to be about conquering each city at a time and finding 200 people in a city to be your fan and maybe 2000 people eventually in each city to be your fan. Now it’s about like, finding those internet, like it’s about finding, you know, 20,000 people in the world to be your fan. You know, like it’s, it’s the, the reach is so much farther and it’s not specific to location. It’s more about finding people that are just into what you are doing and finding that audience through. The platforms. Now that doesn’t really translate into a live business. It’s pretty hard to, you know, if all of a sudden you have a song blow up in, Bure, it’s not gonna be very easy for you and your band to get in a band and drive there and play some shows. But people are doing that and I’m seeing that. And the other thing is just that, be [00:54:00] like I was talking about social media, you know, like a lot of artists who are really good at communicating through these, I, I, I was, it is interesting listening to Dan Mangan on your first, uh, episode of this, but it’s like, you know, your job as an artist now is, you know, partly music creation, partly performance and

Glen Erickson: Content creator.

Chris Wynters: content creation and marketing and uh, you know, because marketing has to be authentic.

And so if you just, you know, even if you have a team at the record label doing it for you, you

Glen Erickson: Yeah. They’re gonna call you. Yeah. They’re like, you gotta get in front of the camera. Yeah.

Chris Wynters: Yeah, you can’t fake it. And, and, um, and so there are, you know, I, I’m not gonna name any specific artists, but like, there are several artists that are really, really good at this and doing really well internationally and are, and have massive careers.

without much in the way of radio support or support from DSPs like the, from Spotify or Apple Music, or support from tradi, whatever’s left of the traditional media. There’s [00:55:00] not a lot left of the traditional media. know, we don’t really have music writers per se, everywhere in the world anymore.

Glen Erickson: Yep.

Chris Wynters: I’m starting to see quite a few artists that really are, are able to, you know, make a real go of it.

Glen Erickson: Yeah.

Chris Wynters: I find that exciting and, and, and I, and actually, you know, be working with the Dead South there, you know, they’re one of these kinds of artists that, you know, they’re not on the radio. Probably a lot of people listening to this podcast, I’ve never heard of them. But band sells two to 5,000 cap venues, headline shows anywhere in the world. Like it’s like, and I, and using the platforms like, you know, Spotify, you know, we can see like the management team, we can see, we can tell how many tickets gonna sell in Melbourne, Australia compared to Amsterdam, Netherlands,

Glen Erickson: Hmm.

Chris Wynters: um, by the numbers of, of, of people streaming the music over the last 28 days in each of those

Glen Erickson: Yeah.

Chris Wynters: it’s kind of like, um, the tools are very useful too. You know, they have a good side and a bad side. And, um,

you know, you can reach [00:56:00] an international audience and you can use them to sort of figure out what’s happening with your music. Like when you, you know, somebody in the nineties was playing your song on the radio in Rast, you had no idea. But

Glen Erickson: You had no, you had no data and you had no analytics, uh, the to interpret data.

Chris Wynters: got 5,000 Shazams in, in, uh, in Berlin, like, what’s going on

Glen Erickson: Yeah. Yeah,

Chris Wynters: dig into it and figure it out, right? And, and, um, there’s some really interesting things happening with that. But, um, the problem is that, you know, the amount of money that, that these, these, these platforms are not profitable, really.

Like if they were to pay

Glen Erickson: yeah.

Chris Wynters: share to the artists, they just wouldn’t make enough money,

Glen Erickson: so let me ask you this question then, It’s, it’s 2025. I’m not even going to like talk, like I’m one of the kids. Like, say I’m one of these people who has been writing songs for a really long time and I sort of understood the industry to work maybe a certain way and I thought I had to get out and play open mics or I had to do some version like you talked [00:57:00] about how you had to go like city to city and sort of conquer a city, right?

To build an audience further and further out and stuff. So what, what do you feel right now if I’m writing songs and I’m not gonna lock it into a genre, but if I’m making music and writing songs, what do you feel like the first. Step outside of your initial circle of, ‘ cause the initial circle in music right, is always your friends and family or whoever has supported you.

And it’s kind of like your yes men. and every artist has to take that first step outside and see whether anybody else actually gives a shit. and that can be pretty wide and, and pretty large step. But I’m wondering what you feel right now. What’s that first step for the person who’s like, okay, I need to go and test this out.

Chris Wynters: Hmm. Well, I think that really varies. It depends on where you are, you know? I mean, maybe it is, and it depends on the genre, it depends on everything. I think, you know, like using the platforms. this is not my expertise at all, but, but I, you know, you see artists [00:58:00] platforms like TikTok and Instagram and, and others, and, uh. To, you know, push short bits, you know, short content versions of songs out to people and, and, um, I, I really do think that that’s kind of the, the most that you’re gonna get from your time spent is to sort of work the platforms and see, you know, you can drum up, a fan base. I also think that it’s worth getting, you know, playing live shows and building things that way.

And building in your backyard first I think is still important.

Glen Erickson: And now you’re working hands-on with bands where you’re trying to give them international opportunities and make the connections so that you can sort of build teams and networks everywhere. So I guess the big question for me is like, from what you’ve seen then, where do you see the opportunity?

And I, I know the part of the answer to this before I even say it is, it depends, but, the opportunity, it’s not just to make that leap. You know, the traditional leap as an artist, like when do I, quit my job and do this? I’m actually more [00:59:00] interested now in when does someone start to actually make, try to make those international connections?

Is it much earlier in their career? How do they make those connections and opportunities since they’re kind of playing in a, the most global version of a market that we’ve ever had?

Chris Wynters: Hmm. This is a loaded question, and I work for a Toronto based record label that has, uh, assigned, you know, entirely Canadian artists. I have never thought about this business or anything except on a global level. Like I, I, I live in Edmonton, Alberta, because I love Edmonton, Alberta, and it’s a good place to be an artist.

And it’s, you know, I have a very high standard of living because it’s one of the most inexpensive places to live in, in Canada. There’s an airport. you know, I, anyway, I, I know when was at Alberta Music, not to be. I love Toronto. Toronto’s great scene. I love it, it costs almost as much money to get in a plane and fly to Toronto as it does to get in a plane and fly to London, Heathrow. And so I. I always, and this was always something, you know, [01:00:00] at Alberta Music that we always talked about was like, okay, well let’s, you know, let’s focus on Europe. Let’s focus on, and I mean, I literally am managing a band who literally has only played toured Canada twice. Like this is a band that’s toured Germany 25 times, you know, and so they, they’re a living, you know, they’re a living success story of the music Industry association system. You know, their first record deal was with the German labeled Devil Duck, who, you know, your tres used to

Glen Erickson: Oh.

Chris Wynters: to, yeah. You know, used to come to, to breakout West and, and saw them. He actually saw them at Canadian Music Week the first time. But, you know, and I, I remember at Alberta Music, we probably had, you know, 10 that came through our system that. Maybe they weren’t making a ton of money, but they were going over and coming back with, with a profit from doing, you know, one or two or three tours a year in Europe. And, um, Canada’s a really difficult country to tour. And you, you need to, you know, it’s kind of, it’s 12 gigs, you know, and, um, you need to be at a certain level to make it [01:01:00] work.

And anyway, I guess my point is, you need to go after the international people right away, you know, I think you’re like, you gotta grow in your backyard, but the farther away you go from home. This is my own personal feeling, and maybe not the feeling of lots of people associated with me, but my all and my experience has been farther away you go from home, the more interesting and, and exotic you become, you know, captain Tractor, our first big tour was to New Zealand. Sane, you know, like we went. All halfway, literally halfway around the planet to tour for nine weeks in a country that has the population of Toronto. But the fact that we did that to the people in New Zealand, you know, we were, we were kind of, you know, we were exotic. We were from Canada, we were from Western Canada.

Nobody has any concept outside of Canada. What that means. It’s like, we

Glen Erickson: Yeah.

Chris Wynters: of like and go, oh, I, you know, I really prefer Bavaria to, some other state. But like, we don’t really think about it like that [01:02:00] because it’s, it, it, we just think about Germany, you know, oh, maybe it’s Berlin, maybe it’s Hamburg or whatever, but you don’t

Glen Erickson: Yeah.

Chris Wynters: details.

And so when you go away somewhere far away, even if you’re from like, you know, Wetaskawin Alberta, like that becomes an exotic place to be from. And um, and sometimes in Canada, when you’re trying to go to Toronto and you’re like from Edmonton, people are kinda like, oh, you’re from Edmonton. But if you’re in London. Edmonton seems just as cool as Toronto. So that’s, that’s, I throw it out there as a Canadian, as a person working in the Canadian music business.

Glen Erickson: Well, that’s a really good answer.

Chris Wynters: perspective, a western perspective. Uh, love Canada. But, um, you know, sometimes a good, a way of attacking Canada is to, to get some good stories outside of Canada and bring them back to Canada. And then people like,

Glen Erickson: Yeah.

Chris Wynters: this is really interesting,

Glen Erickson: Well, we could obviously talk for hours about every little facet of this thing, but, uh, I also wanna respect your time. So I, I appreciate you taking the time to sort of reflect on the versions of questions that I’m asking and give your perspective.

And, I always love hearing what you [01:03:00] have to say ’cause you also deliver it with a good dose of humility and appreciation for everyone around you. That you get to work for which is why, it feels like I’m very honored to have you on and to be able to have the conversation,

Chris Wynters: Appreciate

Glen Erickson: you even, even though you’re

Chris Wynters: thing

Glen Erickson: my backyard.

Chris Wynters: did say earlier that, you know, there were some records that we produced back in the nineties that, um, in or not in the nineties, in the early two thousands, that, um, you know, I really loved and I’m really proud of, and some that I’m maybe not so proud of.

And that the two wheat pool records and also the two, like that crazy two singles that we did, those are two, those are some of my favorite records that I worked on in my whole life. So it, you know, I really enjoyed those times, Glen, and, and, uh, back to, to the, those some special times, making those records.

Glen Erickson: Yeah.

Chris Wynters: it.

Glen Erickson: Well, me too. And I, I’m always super flattered that you say that. I’m pretty sure I didn’t lob up a softball to try and get you to do that, but, um.

Chris Wynters: That was me. I was just thinking,

Glen Erickson: Uh,

Chris Wynters: think that like his [01:04:00] records ’cause I sure did.

Glen Erickson: now buddy, you’ve been always the most supportive and uh, I’ve always been deeply appreciative of that. And I think they were great records too, and you helped steer that and I’ll always be deeply grateful. So thank you for your time, Chris, and, and your friendship and, uh, appreciate this. And who knows, maybe I’ll have you on again.

Maybe I’ll get to keep doing this for a while and we can just take it down a different rabbit hole.

Chris Wynters: Right on man. Well thanks. Thanks mate. And uh, congrats on the podcast. Hope it goes well.

Glen Erickson: Okay? Appreciate it. Appreciate you. Thanks Chris. Okay, bye.

alexi:

Glen Erickson: good evening, Lexi. Hello. So, I was thinking, by the way, you know what the real downside of doing like a nighttime segment with you and doing podcasting is, is that podcasting does not lend itself well to snacks. That’s what I was thinking.

‘ cause I thought, [01:05:00] why, what should I bring in here with me? What should I have for snacks? And snacks does not go well with a high, highly sensitive microphone or any of that kinda stuff. So, oops, I

alexi: into an A SMR segment,

Glen Erickson: now that this stuff’s weird, I was like, I was doom scrolling like on TikTok for way too long. And then there was like Olivia Rodrigo.

Talking into the two microphones. She was switching and scratching her album like a vinyl, and then

alexi: It’s one of my least favorite parts of the internet.

Glen Erickson: my goodness. That’s terrible. okay, well, so this will, that’s good. We’re on the same page. We’ll never turn this into a SMR. we are talking tonight around Chris Wynters, Chris Wynters of Captain Tractor. Chris Wynters, currently the manager of the band, the Dead South, who, you know, are doing very, very well.

And, you and I were. I invited to go watch the Dead South, uh, last time they were here by Chris. and so that was the first time [01:06:00] I had ever actually got to see them. And they’d been around quite a while for me to have never have seen them play, which is a little bit strange. And did you think afterwards, like how has this never been a Folk Fest band in all of that time?

Like.

alexi: I also, I had heard their name mentioned not even in passing, I just heard their name and never once I had, like, I never listened to them before that concert and then I heard them, I. And saw them live, and I was like, why have I not listened to them before? How have I

Glen Erickson: Yeah. Yeah, they’re pretty, pretty adjacent to lots of stuff. But

Yeah. He’s a guy that’s always had like lots and lots of stories. Anytime I can talk about any subject in the music business at any point.

he will have some version of a story that’s related to a person. Like he knows somebody who knows somebody or he actually knows the person or it’s all pretty wild. It’s pretty cool.

alexi: so I was just taking notes on the bus as I do. I was writing down, it was such a small part of the podcast, but, you know, me [01:07:00] and hearing one thing and then only being able to focus on that.

But, it was, when you guys were talking about, kind of the shift to more signages and like digital tools.

Glen Erickson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

alexi: when you guys were talking about that, and it was like interesting listening you guys were both reflecting on it from a perspective of having in a band in the past, when. Those things, like those tools weren’t accessible to you in the same way that they are now.

Glen Erickson: Yeah.

alexi: but it was interesting ’cause I was like listening to him talk someone who like has signed people and like done production as well, like I couldn’t tell almost if based on like Chris’s take, easier or harder to make it as an independent artist today.

Glen Erickson: Hmm.

alexi: you guys were talking about, like, the example specifically of like, um, like mailing lists, uh, and having to like push yourself and how like before it was having to make

Glen Erickson: Yeah.

alexi: and push yourself out there and go and talk to [01:08:00] people. And then you guys kind of joked that now it’s just like QR codes. and made it sound as though like it’s that much easier, but it’s like, I don’t know, I kind of had a couple questions. It was like. Does that shift, in your opinion, make things feel more impersonal or, you know, is it just efficiency to you? And then, kind of that second thing of like, okay, well there’s more tools and there’s more access, but that also means more noise.

Glen Erickson: Yeah.

alexi: does that mean for new musicians? Like,

Glen Erickson: Yeah.

alexi: break through like you have easier tools to be successful? But then because everyone does like, what does that mean? Like how much do you have to break through then?

Glen Erickson: Is it easier or is it harder? here’s the great myth the internet was this idea and the promise and the what they would sell you right from the beginning.

And I think what you also alluded to was, Chris and I are in this U unique position where we learned how to build an audience pre-internet. And in the [01:09:00] middle of our careers was the internet, you know, of, of now we’re shifting our work to being online from organically and in person. So we’ve sort of had to learn both and, and experience both.

So the great myth was, you know, here, come and get online, be a part of this thing, and now you can reach everybody, right?

alexi: Yeah.

Glen Erickson: so, Spotify will now make my music accessible to the entire world tomorrow. It’ll make my podcast accessible tomorrow, right. If I want it to. and the whole world can listen to it.

But the problem is, now you have access to the whole ocean, but you’re. Just a drop in that ocean.

alexi: Yeah.

Glen Erickson: And that’s the myth. And so the bare bones question of is it easier? I don’t think it’s easier. I think everyone’s experiencing how hard it is because to cut through, to get attention, to be unique, to make the algorithm work in your favor.

I mean, right from [01:10:00] episode one, talking with Dan about. Content creation and, and so that work, that work is hard work and people aren’t prepared for it.

alexi: Yeah.

Glen Erickson: And yeah, I guess that’s the long-winded answer but yeah, so it’s same but different. I don’t think it’s easier.

I, I literally don’t think it’s easier. I think,

alexi: thinking.

I was thinking about the, the band that you mentioned to him that I had mentioned in our conversation about like. How I had said that it was

Glen Erickson: Yep.

alexi: underground, but not well.

Glen Erickson: Not underground, new, just new.

alexi: Yeah, new. And you were like, well they have a million streams on a couple of their songs.

But I also just think that, and like seeing that multiple times kind of like proves that point of like these small new bands have the tools now to like make. Singles and put them, or even small eps, put them out on Spotify, put them out on Apple Music and have an Instagram, even a website. And then, you know, they get put [01:11:00] on like a Spotify made playlist or they get put on whatever TikTok and it blows up.

And now they have a couple songs with that many streams. But then you go and look at the bands and they have like maybe a very small signage or they’re not signed. They have like. Couple hundred Instagram followers, maybe, like, maybe they hit a thousand and like no fan base. They’re still playing like small house shows.

Like it’s just interesting that it’s like they have the tools then to make the music and to get that crazy million streams. Um, but like how far does that really take you? It doesn’t,

Glen Erickson: Yeah, well the math on a million streams is very disappointing, and I don’t know if non like musician people have probably heard a bit of it. Maybe it doesn’t sink in enough to tell them like. A million streams and you make a couple thousand dollars or $3,000, like that doesn’t carry you very far in your career.

And you’re right, there’s a bunch of these [01:12:00] bands that are kind of like how he described running into the person in some small club with 50 people

alexi: Yeah,

Glen Erickson: England and you go on on their Insta and they’ve got like 5,000 or 10,000 followers or.

Or something really. And so you, you wouldn’t know like the, there’s all kinds of great imbalances now, which is kind of really interesting time for us to be experiencing in music, I think. Right. So you don’t know anymore. Like, uh, you know, there’s stories out there about, there was a while when everybody was signing artists based on their social media following.

And then you’d go and book them as on a tour, or you’d book them as an opener on some shows anyhow, and they, they couldn’t draw anybody. So in the live music promoter industry, who are some of the most skeptical, jaded people in the entire business? Sometimes, it’s because their entire livelihood depends on draw, on the word draw, and, That’s the one area of the business I’ve never [01:13:00] wanted to do. ’cause you risk your shirt every single time as a promoter, right? Like you have to literally survive off volume. If I put through 10 shows in a month and one of ’em just is an absolute home run, that one might have to make up for the other nine.

Losing money. So that I break even and can pay my assistant at the end of the month type thing. So it’s a brutal, but yeah, so their whole, their whole world is draw and that doesn’t, that doesn’t equate across the way it used to. In the more organic days, you could make better assumptions about whether somebody would actually draw.

Or not, but, but remember what Chris was saying, the other strength of the platform, so this is where it is easier, is the data. So he can tell based on other analytics of how things are being streamed or who’s listening or responding to ads in New Zealand, if they’re gonna be able to sell out a show when they get there

alexi: Interesting.

Glen Erickson: with data [01:14:00] that we would never have had.

Right. There was no way to know.

alexi: It was much

Glen Erickson: Yeah.

alexi: gamble.

Glen Erickson: Yeah, a hundred percent. But yeah.

alexi: It’s interesting.

Glen Erickson: So, it is also funny, so thinking this week about that conversation and, I was thinking about Chris this way because one of my favorite conversations I ever had with Chris is we were driving in the interior of BC back to Kelowna, and

we were going back to the airport. We had a bit of a drive out in the, out in the hills and. Talking about music, of course, and into bands. And so one of my formative eras in indie music that I loved was the late nineties, the second half of the nineties. there was this explosion of indie music and there was a certain scene And my favorite band of that entire scene, uh, was a band called Buffalo Tom. There’s uh, another band called Dinosaur Jr. That was sort of, um. Popular at the time too. Anyhow. But Buffalo Tom was like it for me, and he was the first guy at who knew their entire discography [01:15:00] other than Uncle Brian, who, um, introduced me to them.

so we had a great talk. Plus we bonded around another band called Frightened Rabbit from the UK it was a great conversation and I just remember how like one conversation like that and somebody that he. Recommends like, oh, if you like this stuff, you should have this stuff.

You should listen to these things. And then going back, you know, and he’s like, you should listen to their other album if you haven’t really. And then, and then you do. And then it stays with you. It’s with you forever. And so Friday night, I had all the guys over for Poker and Pie that I haven’t had over for seven years.

And these are guys, right, that. Have been with me for over 20 years, from the late nineties, and just that they’ve, they’ve stuck with me through things like from where I met them to then when I started in the band and they would come out to all of our shows. Um. I mean, one of them was asking about when was the last time you guys did a reunion?

Like they were asking me that. And then the [01:16:00] other guy was like, I still have my t-shirt. So, uh, and which is really cool. And then they started coming over and doing hockey pools with me. And then we started poker and pie nights, and then that fell off just before the pandemic. And then the pandemic just made a wash of five years.

anyhow, so they were over. And the one guy, Was saying to me, we were talking about music a bit and he just mentioned Ray Lamont, the artist, Ray Lamont. And I’m like, oh yeah, Ray Lamont’s awesome. And he’s like, yeah, that album trouble, my wife and I still listen to it all the time. It’s one of our favorite records.

And I recommended it to him.

alexi: Aw.

Glen Erickson: And so when he was coming over, he’s like, my wife’s like, which one’s Glen? ’cause it’s been seven years since we had hung out. And he’s like, he’s the guy that. He told me to buy the Ray Lamont trouble record. Like that’s how he referenced me to his wife, which I thought was kind of funny, but it’s, I think it’s also really great ’cause in the same way that I was reflecting on Chris, the power [01:17:00] of music recommendations, people speaking that into your life is pretty

alexi: It’s

Glen Erickson: significant.

It’s a love language. Well, it’s kind of become our love language a little bit. If I. Gonna sound a little cheesy probably to everybody, but kind of the premise of all this too. I mean, even today, yeah, even today at work, someone was making a joke while I was teasing somebody else about their musical preferences and why I wouldn’t give them the, the Sonos player.

And um, and then they said to somebody else like, what about you? And then I’m like, oh, she’s totally on board with my musical taste, I think more than anybody. And then she’s like, yeah, probably. But she goes, my tastes are changing ’cause my kids are influencing it. And I was like, me too. It’s totally

alexi: No, a

Glen Erickson: too, a little bit.

So

alexi: I’ve had a couple of

Glen Erickson: it’s,

alexi: text, ’cause like certain Spotify playlists you can make private or not.

Glen Erickson: yep.

alexi: And like one of my favorite texts I’ve received in the last few months was, my friend texting and was like, Hey, super [01:18:00] random. A little like awkward. But I just like had to tell you that like this playlist you made has been like on repeat for me and like, I didn’t know a single song on it.

And I’m obsessed with like every single one. And I was like, I’m literally gonna cry right now. Like that is such a huge compliment.

Glen Erickson: Yeah, I was gonna say that I can’t imagine getting a more heartwarming if somebody told me that.

alexi: And it was like, I didn’t even know she followed me on Spotify. I would never, like if she was like, Hey, I need some music, Rex, that would be one of like my bottom three of my own that I probably recommend to her. And then for her to be like, oh, it like introduced me to a kind of new

Glen Erickson: Hmm.

alexi: of music and

Glen Erickson: I.

alexi: it’s like. My go-to. I was like, oh, I’d rather you say like, that’s like better than I love you. Like that is incredible. Thank you.

Glen Erickson: Yeah, you’re right. That’s pretty great. I can’t imagine anything better,

alexi: No.

Glen Erickson: So that’s pretty cool.

alexi: Yeah.

Okay.

Glen Erickson: Thank you as [01:19:00] always.

alexi: Oh yeah. I’ll see you in the morning.

Glen Erickson: see you in the morning, bright and early.

alexi: Okay. Bye.

Glen Erickson: Okay. Love you.

alexi: Love you. Bye.