Adaline is a bad believer

Glen Erickson: 0:00I think some of the most interesting criticisms I read in the comment sections of artists is when they are told to quote unquote stay in their lane. It usually comes after an artist or musician has made some kind of public statement on a social or political issue, or has just aligned themselves with an event or person in some way or another. I think it’s an interesting criticism because the very nature of being an artist and a creative is to live in the spaces that overlap every part of us as people. There is no compartmentalization. It’s not possible. While a consumer may prefer for a singer to just create songs that they like, it’s inevitable that artist may tear up a picture of the Queen on Saturday Night Live. Adaline has never been on SNL, nor symbolically protested on grand stages as such. Adaline is the stage name of Shawna Beasley, an incredible songwriter and singer whose career has skipped from Vancouver to Toronto to Los Angeles. She has, however, embraced a different kind of protest by building a community around her, of people identifying with religious trauma, allowing her own personal outing to come through her music over time. Her music was her first protest of all the unfair standards and traditional traumas cycled over time. And she has allowed the overlap of her personal cause to become the cause of others. Born in the music, but not unlimited by it. Adaline has released five albums over the past 16 years, appeared in over 80 TV and film placements, been the voice to many successful commercials and campaigns and founded the Bad Believer community. My name is Glen Erickson. This is Almost Famous Enough. Thanks for spending your time with us. This. is Adaline. We’re good. So let’s dive in where we were sort of chit chatting right off the bat, which is like, how long has it been? And again, publicly, I want to make sure I don’t just like time into a, you and I catching up session because, um, you know, but here’s, here’s the catch. I I’ve done this with a couple of people, but I would love to just dive in with you. in this way to the point right where we met each other, which is a point pretty early in your career. And I really want to be able to draw sort of paint a picture at some point quick about Just the landmarks or the milestones of your career and where you started, where you’re at and some of the things in those pieces as they moved. But since this is really back early, I’m going to drop you with a really big one right off the bat, which is, I think our story of when we actually met was really interesting. And I want to hear your take on it. So when you think like, here we are, two friends that met, you know, well over a decade and some ago and a half ago.

Shawna: 3:04Yeah.

Glen Erickson: 3:05We’ve never ever talked about this though, so I just think it’d be in a, and I swear this will be all the deep dive catching up I’ll do really interesting and I want to hear your take on when we met on how you sort of remember it.

Shawna: 3:20I don’t remember the moment we met because we Well, first of all, my memory is terrible, but also I remember, I remember like hanging out with you in Edmonton I remember that experience and being at, Oh, what hotel were we at? what’s, what’s the exact moment we met? I just remember, you know, it’s wild. I just remember you being in my life. And it’s almost like when we met, we were so immediately like synced that it’s,

Glen Erickson: 3:50exactly.

Shawna: 3:50I don’t even remember not

Glen Erickson: 3:53It’s a big part of my memory, too. The, the immediate,

Shawna: 3:56connection.

Glen Erickson: 3:58so what you might be remembering of hanging out in Edmonton might’ve been Regina, Saskatchewan, because we had a big hang at a breakout West or Western music words, at one point. And I remember us doing a lot of chumming around there, but, so my memory of when we met was in Toronto. It must’ve been North by Northeast. Cause I’m pretty sure it was June because of the tour route that my band was on at the time and my publicist was.

Shawna: 4:25So it would have been North

Glen Erickson: 4:26Yeah, at that time, CMW was in March and North by Northeast in Toronto was in June, which is again, in recollect for the size of the music industry in Canada to have the two pillar things in Toronto so close together in the year was always funny. I mean, they’ve sort of tried to figure it out since then, but it was, it must’ve been in June, but, and it must’ve been North by Northeast. My publicist is Ken Beatty, of Kill Beat, right? And it was The Riv on Queen, one of the venues hosting some bands, and it was one of these light organ bands, something Sons was playing. I’m trying to get as much detail as my bad old memory can get too. So here’s the part that was, this is why it’s a fun memory for me, okay? So Ken introduces us, we’re hitting it off right away, and Just sitting off to the side, ignoring the band and talking over top of them. As artists, we should never have do that. But there we were doing the thing where you talk over top of the band. Cause we’re so into like finding out about each other. And I don’t remember at what point we kind of made that real big connection. So I’ll get to that part in a second, but at some point in there, Because you have a real energy and a real vibe and you’re real big in a room, I think. And I find that super engaging and I’m just getting to know you. And, and so at some point you had a group of girlfriends pull you off to the bathroom. And I don’t know why, cause it had never happened to me before, but somehow in my mind I knew exactly what was going on. And then you came back out and you said like, they were warning you that they saw that I was wearing a wedding ring. Is it coming back to you now?

Shawna: 6:08Yes.

Glen Erickson: 6:09Okay. So this has never happened to me in life, which is why it sticks with me. This is why this is sticking with me, right? I’ve never had it happen in my life where I wasn’t trying to conceal my wedding ring. I don’t, we joked about, I don’t know what was going on. We were just, I’m just energetic and communication and we were like clicking right away. So I found that one of the funniest things I’d ever, ever thought about. Anyhow,

Shawna: 6:34I mean, I was just so single. I was just so single. And I feel like when I met you, I was just also like ready to mingle. And

Glen Erickson: 6:43you were. Yes, you were.

Shawna: 6:45And I think that, my friends probably saw that we were, it off. And even though we weren’t hitting it off in that way, it’s funny. And I find this, even as I get older to how much friendships, whether it’s, you know, love connections or friendships, they have, they have some of the same building blocks.

Glen Erickson: 7:03Yeah.

Shawna: 7:03there’s a lot of like the same things there. Sometimes I had an experience recently where I met someone where I thought, Oh, I really want to be their friend. And I had like almost similar feelings of like the same nerves of, of romantic interest. So like, Oh my gosh, well, but will they want to hang out with me and do they want to be my friend? So sometimes I think life in, in whether it’s romance or friendship, it can be such a fine line. So my friends probably saw us and immediately were like, Oh, she’s interested and needs to be given the heads up. Yeah, that

Glen Erickson: 7:32Yeah, I totally, I totally agree. Like, you know, there’s the colloquial joke of a bromance. And I think that’s just adult men realizing that, in relationship, you find attractive qualities in somebody and it energizes you and you want to be with them and, and so, yeah, absolutely that happens, you know, and of course, in certain circles or places or in different points in history, the observation of that probably happening. between the sexes is perceived a certain way, but what’s interesting to me then, too, is their perception of that energy that was going on and this is the kicker for me was really around this thing that you and I connected with, which is in very short order. Somehow we figured out we were both PKs. Which, for those who don’t understand the, the term in certain circles, a PK is a pastor’s kids. So we are both the children of evangelical ministers in somewhat parallel or adjacent, sort of belief structures and, and church operations for lack of a better term. So the adjacency and the similarity and our ages and all that. So all of a sudden we had this shared experience. Right. That we, I thought, and plus we’re here, we are trying to like chameleon ourself into, the debaucherous music industry or whatever.

Shawna: 8:49we’re music.

Glen Erickson: 8:51yeah, so I, it gave us a lot to talk about.

Shawna: 8:55I think that, yeah, you’re, hit the nail on the head in my life in general, whenever I meet anyone from the evangelical world, it’s. It’s like a different language that unless you’re from it, you just, you can’t speak it and it’s not that it’s better than anything else. It’s just different. And so when you meet someone from that world, you immediately feel like, oh, you’re, I, you are going to be in my life forever, especially when we’re coming from a space and now we’re in a different space. It’s just such a unique journey that I think when I met you, it was like, oh, you get it. yeah. And, and people always like try to get it and they can get it in different ways, but it is like evangelicalism is such a, you know, immersive, all encompassing experience that it is hard to fully grasp it unless you’ve been in it.

Glen Erickson: 9:43Absolutely. It’s a total vibe and it is like camp kids coming back and now we’re forever united around our camp experience when you’re young, right. because, but it’s also a little extra immersive because we’re children, of the people who were sort of. Overly immersed in it and responsible for creating a modeling, this version of immersion and whatnot. So it had its own little vibe, but that’s exactly why I felt very, bonded to you very quickly. I feel as a friend in, in, in the wild world Music and I was coming at it a bit older, right? And I think that was another shared experience. We had, I remember some of your earliest concerns were simply the, the, the burden of perception that a female artist bears that, males don’t. And you were either 30 or approaching 30 at the time. And you were expressing all kinds of fears about that as well. And I was, I didn’t start my band until I was 35 or 33 or 35. And, So I had sort of ageist fears as well about the industry. So there was lots to bond. So I, I just, I figured might as well, we might as well just start off with recollection, either it’s an interesting to story people or it’s not, but so,

Shawna: 10:58I mean, you, you also, it, you’re describing a lot of, like, where a lot of us from that world are late bloomers.

Glen Erickson: 11:05yeah,

Shawna: 11:05so, yeah, it kind of makes sense that if you’re going to be in that and go into something else, especially music, it’s just, we were just a little bit older than everyone else.

Glen Erickson: 11:13yeah, that’s a great point. So that was around, I’m guessing either 2008, maybe that was 2008, maybe it was 2009 though, might be a better bet that it was.

Shawna: 11:23Yeah, I think it was 2000, probably 2009. Yeah, probably around there.

Glen Erickson: 11:28So you were an artist who moved from Vancouver to Toronto, and, and that I think is always a point of conversation in the music industry in Canada, right? So you had released your first record in 2007, when you were, I think, still in Vancouver, when you released your first album. Yeah,

Shawna: 11:50just, one year. It’s 2008. I started recording it in 2007, released it in 2008 in Vancouver. And the Vancouver music scene, you know, from back then into the, into the 2010s was just amazing. so there was like quite a bit of community there, which was so fun. But yeah, there’s that feeling of like, oh, it’s time to, you know, Expand this and naturally you think of going to Toronto. I think

Glen Erickson: 12:14the,

Shawna: 12:15did.

Glen Erickson: 12:16yeah, the pull of Toronto in the Canadian music scene is, is, like undeniable

Shawna: 12:22Yeah,

Glen Erickson: 12:23an entire industry sort of being there and the, at the time, I think it’s maybe changed a bit now, obviously, it’s evolved a bit, but at the time, it was an inevitable question of, you know, if you started to see success, are you considering moving to Toronto to sort of be in the center of it and then you make this choice of, You know, do I be a bigger fish in a smaller pond or all of a sudden become a very small fish in a big pond? What was,

Shawna: 12:50totally.

Glen Erickson: 12:50you can think all the way back to that, what was, was it, was, did it, let me put it this way, did it feel impulsive or was, or did you really, Think that one through and, and talk with people and sort of set up the steps to make the move. And you sort of knew what you were after, or were you doing sort of the Hollywood version of, you know, going to LA or, or Nashville to, to make it big.

Shawna: 13:14Well, it’s so funny because I’m sitting here in my Los Angeles home. So apparently I just, that’s how my brain works. no. So when I first, that’s a good question. It didn’t feel impulsive because I had recorded, I’d come to Toronto in, gosh, 2010 to record, my record album. modern Romantics, which came out in 2011. So in 2010 I spent a summer in Toronto recording, with Hawksley Workman. And so I kind of had four months in the city to, to feel it out, to get a sense of what it was like. you know, and it was wonderful because I was recording and meeting lots of people and I did find the energy to be energy to be quite different than Vancouver. A little bit more go, go, go, which I was really drawn to. It wasn’t as laid back. And I was just at a time in my life where I wanted to feel that buzz. so luckily I’d had those four months making the record. So I had like informed decision. And then I think I moved permanently early 2011. so I had, yeah, a little bit of time to think on it, but you know, it’s always a gamble because like I mentioned, we had a great community in Vancouver and there was a lot going on there. Arguably more even than what I found in Toronto in the sense of I had a tighter community in Vancouver. But you know, you, you just have to take those gambles in life and, and see you can always go back. but it is that, that classic question, do I wanna like stay where I have at least the comfort of knowing that I can, you know, talk to radio stations easily? Or do I wanna somewhere where no one knows who I am? That’s always a tough choice.

Glen Erickson: 14:54It is a very tough choice. I think a lot of artists, especially Western Canada, and I think you talk about Vancouver, so you at least had an opportunity of some size and community, not to mention the timing that you were talking about, which I think was really well timed for what was developing and they had a real positive impact. solid boom for quite a while in the independent music scene and the connection. so you, you make the move and like you said, you’re working on that record with Huxley Workman. So let’s, let me pause for a quick second and just sort of reference, your releases because I don’t know whether I grabbed them from like Wikipedia or I grabbed them off Spotify, but then the years don’t line up, but the years don’t maybe matter so much now anymore. But

Shawna: 15:43There’s a

Glen Erickson: 15:43you make,

Shawna: 15:44space between my second and third record, big amount of time.

Glen Erickson: 15:49yeah, there’s some gaps. that’s fine. I mean, so you had your first release. independently famous for fire, and then like you just referenced modern romantics, which you recorded with Hawksley Workman. So, and then that comes out 2011, you say, and then and then aquatic is that 2017 all the way to then and then dear illusion in 2020. And then you released your Your latest one, hymnal last year in 2024. So, I, you know, publicly we have perceptions of artists about their career, whether you call it arcs or trajectories or whatever you want to call it, the public just has this simple perception of milestones of, are they doing it or are they not doing it, you know, and you send other records. So yeah, I guess they’re still doing it, even though it was four years ago or five years ago. And, So it’s very different than what you are experiencing as an artist. So I think it’s interesting to tie back, but let me ask you kind of a bigger question when you just talk about the span, right? From 20, 2007, eight to 2024

Shawna: 16:55Wild.

Glen Erickson: 16:55producing and making records. So you actually get to call it a music career, right? Which is, I’m going to guess it doesn’t look at all right now. What you thought it was gonna be when you set out and made and released that first record, which is like birthing a child and learning what that would be like for the first time, this whole thing. And you think your career is gonna be something. Can you, can you sort of describe what you think you felt like it was gonna be sort of against what you really feel your career has been now

Shawna: 17:29Yeah,

Glen Erickson: 17:31that’s.

Shawna: 17:31I mean, that’s a big one. This is always really tricky and I still am trying to figure this out. I think you have to dream big. You have to. That’s in all things in life. That’s what makes us get out of bed in the morning. That balance between dreaming big and being realistic is just extremely hard. I’ve always been someone that thinks you just need to dream and, and go for it, but also know that it may not happen or, or shape out exactly how you think it will. And navigating the potential feelings of disappointment or, Oh, I didn’t quite reach that goal. Quote unquote goal is, is really difficult. but the reality is, is that, No one ever reaches points in their career exactly the way that they thought they would. you have to leave space for allowing life to take you on whatever journey that might be. But I would say that I’ve definitely had to try to learn to process the feelings of not. Quite getting there. I mean, the name of your podcast is just so great. I think I actually had a similar experience when the CBC did this feature on me once. And it was like the artist. You don’t know that, you know, and I just thought that is so perfect because I’ve done quite a bit. And I’ve been the voice of different things. I think one thing that was really surprising for me was how much commercial work I ended up doing. That was never really a part of the plan or like my sync

Glen Erickson: 18:58yeah,

Shawna: 18:58there’s so many times that people have heard me, but they don’t know who I am, which is partly kind of cool, but also a little frustrating. Cause you know, you would love for people to know the voice so that you could actually retain those people and try to

Glen Erickson: 19:14yeah.

Shawna: 19:15into your world. But I’m also just grateful. I know how hard it is for people to hear your voice. So I’m grateful for that.

Glen Erickson: 19:23Well, let’s jump in on that. I, I find, because I find that one of the most fascinating parts about your career, right, is because what I was alluding to is we all start out as dreams of an artist, of us, if we’re writing the songs we want to perform, what we’re really doing is saying, I want to, you know, Step into the shoes of these people. I’ve idolized and the big and we recognize it’s a big ask. It’s a big dream to do so, right? So we’re really sort of just copycatting and mimicking in those first stages of what we think we want to be and become. And we have expectations of how it will play out. But as you described, it doesn’t play out that way. And you’ve had surprises, right? These are the corners you’ve turned and didn’t know where they were going to take you. And that shapes your career. So, one of the, one of the things I’ve, I’ve been caught saying a couple of times in my past, which now sort of like haunt me in all of this process of my life as well. I’ve sat on a million. It feels like hyperbole, but grant either grant or Jurying, right, at all different levels, or awards, jurying and all this sort of thing. And I was always fascinated, similar to that phrase that they used with you at CBC, but I was always fascinated by somebody who had this resume and I had never heard their name before.

Shawna: 20:42Right.

Glen Erickson: 20:42And of course, as you know, I can sometimes like lean on the arrogant, side when I like to say things in my life. So I, I remember boldly once saying, I’m just never interested in anonymous success and. I don’t know if I still believe that anymore. Like I’ve had to learn a lot, right? You say something out of sort of a haste or impetus and you learn, but the, but the phrase kind of stuck with me and sort of what you’re describing of how you feel as an artist, if you realize that you might be achieving quote unquote, anonymous success, right? Perhaps we can start with, cause I couldn’t remember the name of it, but I remember being so thrilled when I heard that Christmas commercial that you sang the little piece and the voice and the adorable little animated girl, right? And it felt like it just sort of exploded out there. And what was that song or commercial when you talk about your work in jingles that could we start there?

Shawna: 21:43Yeah, I mean, that was what a what? A what an epi epitome moment of like something coming outta left field and then all of a sudden it’s just this huge thing. So was, an ad for Cineplex and they’d done this short film called Lily and the Snowman.

Glen Erickson: 21:59Hmm.

Shawna: 22:00and so. sort of started like a lot of these things start where, you know, I get a call usually from either a music house or a composer, and they say, you know, I’ve got this song and, you know, you do a lot of these, you sing and get paid a little bit of money and you just cross your fingers that it lands. And, you know, that’s it. Often it doesn’t. And then you just go on to the next project. So when I first got the call from this, for this from David Arcus, who’s the composer, he said, you know, it’s a, it’s a Genesis cover. they have the rights for the Genesis cover of follow you, follow me. And so we did it. And often with these ads, I mean, you’re doing them so fast. I think we did it in like half an hour, 45 minutes. It’s just a quick thing.

Glen Erickson: 22:44I was going to ask. Yeah,

Shawna: 22:47Oh, all this stuff is fast. I mean, the amount of ads that I have that have gone on to be on television that I recorded like under a blanket, like, or in an airport trying to find like a, some kind of enclosed space. I can layer my jackets over my head. I mean, that’s just. Kind of how it is. especially now with so many things recording at home. so, so recorded that with David and then. found out that they wanted to do a second record. And when I showed up to do it at the music house at Vapor in Toronto, there was a whole camera crew there. think that’s when I was like, Oh, they’re, this is becoming this, they’re planning on really pushing this in some way, because it’s very rare for you to be recorded, performing for commercial work. and then, yeah, and then it. they decided to release it and push it before, well, what movie? I think it was Star Wars. It was a Star Wars Christmas special. it may have been like the first Star Wars that was coming out in a while. And, it played before movie in cinemas across Canada, over the holidays. And it just sort of Picked up steam and became this viral thing. And then all of a sudden picked up on YouTube. And I think it had 48 or 50 million views. and this whole time people were like, where can we get the song? Where can we get the song? often with commercial work, you don’t release those songs.

Glen Erickson: 24:21you don’t record the whole thing, right? If you’ve done this in half or you’re just recording the segment they’re going to use and they’ve mapped it. Yeah.

Shawna: 24:29Yeah. So we, we did end up finishing that song because there was. Like a desire for people to hear it, but I think it was released under the artist’s name. Like the artist’s name was the music house featuring me. I mean, it’s just one of those things where it’s so rare for people to be asking for a full song of a song they hear in an ad, but it became this really cool thing. Financially, it wasn’t a big thing for me because it was just a theatrical release. So it never went on TV. So I didn’t make TV money or anything like that, but it was, really beautiful for connecting with people. And so many people walk down the aisle at their wedding to the song, or, you know, kind of had a little bit of a stint on hot AC and, you know. It’s in radio in Canada. so I got to go play some radio stations and things like that. So that was just a, little surprise and a very rare experience of like my commercial work and my artist work kind of like intersecting because oftentimes they’re separate. In fact, when I do commercial work, I often. ask for my artist name to not be listed because it’s not my creative work. When I do commercial work, I’m being art directed to sing in a certain way. Sometimes it doesn’t even sound like me. so I often try to separate them, but that was an instance of them kind of merging.

Glen Erickson: 25:48you’re, and you’re getting those jobs because of your skill as a vocalist and the singer to take that art direction and do all that. So it’s not your own artistic expression. And I think it’s interesting, Shawna, that, I think people are always interested, what you sort of alluded to, is there a payoff for an artist? There’s no version of residuals or like you mentioned, like TV money because of sync and stuff that, that someone might have an opportunity to continue to earn based on. Placements and how often these things are actually, you know, screened, but you’re just taking, you know, a project fee in a sense. And then maybe artists are thinking, oh, then maybe you’re trying to hope that the exposure as the famous commodity and currency in artistic industries, the exposure will pay off for you as some form of currency. and maybe those are the ones that Have come closer to having some payoff for you, whether it be making other connections that would do that, I presume. Did you feel like those were creating opportunities for you?

Shawna: 26:56Oh yeah. Well, so what’s so interesting is singing in an ad is considered acting. So when I started doing ads, I had, I, you know, the first few ones I would have to do these, permits with acta. and then once I did enough of them, I became a full member. So I’m a full member of, of the actors union in Canada and here in the us. I’m not an actor. so when I’m licensed, when I, you know, and this is what’s different from comp for, as opposed to composing for commercials for composing, they often get like this lump sum payout, from like a buyout from the agency, or they might have a deal with the music house that if it gets renewed, they get kind of like a bump up again, like a re level of some sort financially. But for the singers, because we’re considered actors, we get paid like an actor’s,

Glen Erickson: 27:46Yeah.

Shawna: 27:47which means that every time in Canada, it’s a little different than the States, but whenever it gets renewed, I get paid again. And in the States I get paid every time it airs on anything. So singing commercials is. Very lucrative. even more so potentially than even writing the music for them. because the music side of things doesn’t really make as much money sometimes. so that has been huge for me just pursuing that side of things. I don’t get a ton of as much creative input, but that’s what my artist career is for.

Glen Erickson: 28:20Yeah.

Shawna: 28:20of feel like I get to live in this space where I do really, you know, one day I’m singing soul and one day I’m doing folk and one day I’m doing a different country or, and that’s really fun. But. That would never want, I’d never want that to be the only thing I do creatively. I also want to feel like I’m

Glen Erickson: 28:36Yeah.

Shawna: 28:37So I think for all of us in this industry, especially now financially, you kind of do have to wear a million different hats and that’s partly tiring, but it also is partly what keeps it interesting and fresh. And cause I, it’s funny to go back to what we were saying before. I had these dreams of what I wanted my life to look like, but I don’t even know if I would have loved. Doing what we wanted, like this thing we wanted

Glen Erickson: 29:03That’s a great point.

Shawna: 29:04on the road all the time, playing in

Glen Erickson: 29:07Exactly. Yeah,

Shawna: 29:08I look at it and I’m like, Oh, I talked to friends that have that life. And it’s very lonely.

Glen Erickson: 29:14well, if you look at the older people who are still in their career, right, who have a great measure of success

Shawna: 29:21the

Glen Erickson: 29:22of what they now do,

Shawna: 29:24do

Glen Erickson: 29:25is sort of, you know, they put up with all those things that we were, quote unquote, aspiring to as now we figure out

Shawna: 29:32the,

Glen Erickson: 29:33them, they just were putting up with that to try to get to the point that they’re at to afford themselves. You know, the choices that they could have when you, so when you started, were you taking this sort of voice work as literally a way to pay the bills in between as a, as perhaps I’m making some bold assumptions as you know, the alternative to like getting a part time job at Starbucks or something or what an artist does to sort of. Keep paying the rent while they continue to try to build an artistic career. You are actually able to sort of supplement yourself still inside of music that way.

Shawna: 30:08Yeah, well, and it’s funny because sometimes even now, and it’s wild because we were talking back in 2008 about me thinking I was too old and now I’m still having that conversation trying to do new things and you just have to realize that that question has to be kind of irrelevant.

Glen Erickson: 30:27We won’t use numbers in this conversation today. It’s okay.

Shawna: 30:30No, no, but it is one of those things where, you kind of have to always be pushing the only difference I think between where how I push now and when I did then is like, I was just voracious, like, ferocious. I just would do anything and Was out every night and networking continuously. And through all of that, I had this opportunity really, really early. I think it was probably after I released my first album, because there was a song on that record, my 2008 record that got into the hands of someone in a commercial house in Toronto. And they messaged me and said, Hey, we really love this song. And we want to try to make it work for this commercial. It was some kind of commercial soap, something in the soap world. And, but they said to me, but it’s not quite exactly what the client wants. And so I messaged and said, well, what does the client want? And they said something like they want it to be a bit more Orchestral. So in my young wanting to do anything mind, I brought in a little mini orchestra borrow it. Like I called in a couple of favors from people in Vancouver and studios. And I basically orchestrated this huge sweeping piece and sent it into the music house and who I still work with, his name is Brendan Quinn. And he said to me something like. Wow. This is amazing that you did this. It’s not going to work out, but the initiative you showed in this, ever moved to Toronto, I will use you as often as I can. so then that was also to go back to the earlier in the conversation when I was weighing out, do I go to Toronto? I had that rolling in the back of my head, like, well, I do know that guy in the commercial world who told me if I moved here, because back then we were doing a lot of singing in studio, like we weren’t recording at home. So I needed to be in Toronto. so I moved to Toronto and that’s how I started doing tons of commercial work. And one of Brendan’s main collaborators was David Arcus, who’s the person who I did Lily and the Snowman with. So you know how this works. It’s

Glen Erickson: 32:41It all comes together.

Shawna: 32:42you, but you have to be continually trying to make those connections, which thankfully was very natural for me because I’m outgoing and I’m a people person. now I have an understanding of, of empathy for people who are a little bit more shy or a little bit more homebody ish because I don’t want to go out as much. but I do think you have to keep that part of it alive because that is kind of where the opportunities come is by meeting people.

Glen Erickson: 33:11Yeah, I think that’s a great point. I mean, there’s a couple of things in there I could call out like, you know, just having somebody who said something like that to you and followed through

Shawna: 33:22Totally.

Glen Erickson: 33:23to feel like encouragement to anybody who’s encountering these conversations currently, I think, because it’s so hard to believe in our industry, whether someone who throws out promises or, you know, when, Something that might feel like hyperbole actually follows through with what they said. And it’s currently even still a part of your life and your work opportunities, which is like pretty amazing and pretty fantastic. I think the other interesting thing is just the willingness, like seeing how it’s impacted your career and how it’s giving you opportunities and the opportunities it’s afforded you just. To pursue artistic career as an artistic career, which is also difficult to do because as soon as as soon as we decide to charge somebody for our CD or or sell a ticket to a show. Well, some become business people and we.

Shawna: 34:16hmm.

Glen Erickson: 34:17Submerged in the blending of two worlds. So being able to choose, I think it actually enables you or has probably enabled you to be more free with your artistic career as a result from something that honestly, I think a lot of people in our, in our industry and not just industry, not industry people. Actually, the artist circles have carried a version of judgment or snobbery, around. Around those pursuits like it’s like as if there should be the other right either go do that or be an artist we’re over here trying to be pure artists for art sake and we’re the real deal man and I’ll never forget the the moment that a stake got put through that in my life, which was Ryan Guldemond of Mother Mother

Shawna: 35:04Mm

Glen Erickson: 35:04is great Ted Talk on this now to on creativity and his creative process, but he would come to those peak performance

Shawna: 35:12Mm

Glen Erickson: 35:12boot camps and give this talk on his creativity. In the middle of it, he would start talking about his examples of his creative process about the ethic behind it was actually cased in him talking about how he was writing jingles, and you could just feel around the room. This nervous tension of people who are like, this guy’s an incredible artist. And they, people didn’t know how to handle the fact that he was talking about how he has a jingle writing, a very successful mind, you jingle, writing Career. he’s an incredibly prolific writer and creator, and he was talking about his process in the shape of, this is how I take these ideas that are never going to be mother, mother songs. And I’ve turned them into jingles because I allow, I allow the muse to To take its place to take its course and doesn’t put a judgment or a box on any creative thought, which is incredible. And the career opportunities, I mean, mother, mother’s done quite well, don’t get me wrong, but he also has created a whole nother thing for himself. That is incredible as a result. And I think it’s interesting the portion where that intersects with your career and the way that you’ve been able to do that. So,

Shawna: 36:28I was just going to say I was there. I was there for that talk that he did because I was there

Glen Erickson: 36:33oh,

Shawna: 36:34year at the peak

Glen Erickson: 36:35okay.

Shawna: 36:35project. And I remember in that talk, because I was doing commercial work at the time, and there was a massive snobbery back then, especially back then. Now. People do anything for money. We’re all just trying to through. But when we started, when I first started, it was kind of like you were considered a bit of a sellout to even have

Glen Erickson: 36:54Exactly.

Shawna: 36:55used in a, in a car commercial or something. And I remember listening to him and I remember sitting and thinking, It felt like because he was so cool, and respected from an artistic especially, it kind of took away any of the shame that I was feeling because I was feeling a bit of that. Like, I was like, oh, it’s not really cool for me to be doing X, Y, and Z. And when he said that, I realized, oh, wow, you know, the reality is, is like, What is cool? Really? We just have to do what makes us happy. I also remember when Carly Rae Jepsen first started releasing music and everyone kind of was like, oh, it’s so poppy, blah, blah, blah, like kind of like turning their nose up at it. And then Call Me Maybe happens. And then all of a sudden, all these like hipster boys are like, Oh yeah, like it’s so cool. I just think all of this shifts and turns on a dime. So you really do just have to realize that

Glen Erickson: 37:58Was I a hipster boy? Please tell me. I wasn’t a hipster boy at that time.

Shawna: 38:03Do you want me to say you’re a hipster boy? Because I also know that sometimes people like that. I never thought that. I’ll tell you, you were never, there’s some, there’s obviously a stereotype in that with a little bit of snobbery and you’ve never been snobby. but I just, I am, I fully agree with Ryan and with you in the sense that. There isn’t a scarcity with creativity. Creativity feeds into itself. And I know a lot of really talented musicians that make commercials and we have conversations. And I think the, the, the, the important thing for everyone is if you’re only making commercials, that can actually start to feel

Glen Erickson: 38:42Mm-hmm

Shawna: 38:43Because there is like, it’s formulaic in a way, and it doesn’t allow for maybe as much artistic expression. So those writers need to find an outlet. So sometimes I’m like, well, let’s do something different. Let’s go write, write a song together. But then I also work with artists that are just kind of doing their own thing. And they’re kind of like, I want to know what it’s like to write a pop song. So I think we just have to all know that we need to be able to be fluid and merge between

Glen Erickson: 39:10Thank you.

Shawna: 39:10because that’s what makes us stronger musicians as well.

Glen Erickson: 39:14Yeah, I think out in the public, there’s a familiar rhetoric, I think of, you know, like the big, we’re talking about the big stars and the stories of them bringing a song to the label or the executives for the next record, you know, it’s been sort of characterized, I think, in TV and movies sometimes, right, bringing this sort of more artistic expression, and then it gets totally slammed because they’re like, why would you change the formula? We figured out on the last record how to sell. 5 million copies, right? Why would you possibly do this? I think that exists on the smaller, regular, like growth early stages trajectory as well, right? When you may encounter in your own local community, Music circles the same level of snobbery or rejection, or the very first time you go to somebody who’s established and they try to tell you what you should be or shouldn’t be and all of that experience. So, you’ve had, obviously, as we’ve already talked about, like a pretty lengthy career of, Being a singer and being an artist and a singer songwriter and putting out your own music as well as these other things As I sort of even alluded to earlier I think there’s the obvious unique pressures that a woman has to face unfortunately in an industry that has been built and ruled by very sexist mores by men. and encountering that you probably need to look this way or what you were feeling when we first met of,

Shawna: 40:43Yep.

Glen Erickson: 40:43see, I don’t see any observational version of acceptance of a woman getting older when she’s starting her career, right? There’s supposed to be youth is king, vibrancy, all of these things we encounter. And you’ve worked with Interestingly to me, I love when I trace through your music is the variance of collaboration, which is a big part of music and music making, I think, and even becoming increasingly so over the last decade, this version of collaboration that different genres brought out and now sort of applies. across all kinds of genres. So you’ve had a really wide range of collaboration, which would be great to chat about for a second about how that’s influenced your own stylistic choices. But I’m wondering to the point we were just making, did you face times either in those collaborations or in maybe with The, the team I will call it or whoever you were working with or for to get your records produced, was there influences trying to be made on you about the kinds of choices you had to make and need to make for your own career? And how did you, I don’t know whether there’s some that are really obvious for you to pluck out and how you navigate those from the position that you had to navigate them. Okay.

Shawna: 42:01Yeah creatively i don’t I, I feel i had a lot of Pressure. luckily.. I think because I was like in a more alternative pop world, I think if I was really, really straight down the middle, top 40 pop, I do think that there’s more pressure there for things to be a certain way. because I was a little bit more alternative in my pop. I think I was allowed to explore my creativity in my own way, but there was a ton of pressure on what I looked like. especially because when I started like being curvy in any way, it was just weird. I was always like the curt person ever on any stage. I think like it, it’s wild because back I wish I, I wish again retro. I wish I could go back and just comfort myself then, because I just feel so differently about it. But back then it really did feel like. would come up to me and, and say like, how inspiring it was to see a person of my size on stage. And And I just remember feeling like it was like a, a compliment because I, I felt like there were women who were

Glen Erickson: 43:08I believe back at that’s a heavily. Hmm.

Shawna: 43:14any kind of insult. I actually genuinely think there were women that were, this was kind of before the body positivity movement, so it, that would be like the very beginning stages where someone would come up and be like, I. Seeing you on stage makes me feel like I can be on that. I can do something, but I don’t think I was in a place to receive that, in a way that didn’t immediately make me very aware of how I looked.

Glen Erickson: 43:38Yeah.

Shawna: 43:39so that was more of a struggle. I, I had conversations with music people. There are jobs I didn’t get because of the way I looked. There were, of money put into like personal training and like just stuff to try to get me to look a certain way.

Glen Erickson: 43:54Yeah.

Shawna: 43:55probably more of the pressure I felt artistically. Thankfully, I felt like I was able to go in and make whatever records I wanted and collaborate with whoever I wanted. And because I had a level of talent, I think that was trusted within my community. I didn’t ever feel like people felt like they needed to kind of intervene. which I’m grateful

Glen Erickson: 44:15The market you. Right.

Shawna: 44:18me was

Glen Erickson: 44:19Marketing you were the people that you were probably encountering.

Shawna: 44:23Yes, it was marketing me and I think also to go back to what we were just talking about, I was very hard to market in general because I was kind of pop, but kind of not. I was. Looked like a rock star but didn’t like, I had all these like almost things so everyone would be like, ah, we don’t really know what to do with you. Like even trying to get an agent, were just like, we just don’t really get, we don’t know where to put you. We already have, and it’s funny because Hannah George’s is a great friend of mine and we’ve kind of like laughed at this but I remember back then there was like this, a lot of like, well, we already have George’s. I was like, Hannah and I are so different. Like stylistically we’re very different. I mean, we’re similar in the sense that we do alternative, an alternative form of, of pop in some way. But her and me are, I was way more el She was way more like cool and like we were just so different. But it’s almost like the industry just was like, it’s not this and it’s not that, then yeah. So

Glen Erickson: 45:32Doors, the entry points, the doorways that marketing will sell somebody to the public, Are singular at best.

Shawna: 45:42Yes,

Glen Erickson: 45:42going to be labeled. So from a marketer perspective, I have a female who is not mainstream, but has wide popular appeal. I only need one of those. Cause I don’t think I have more appetite than that in the market for one. So they don’t give a shit about you or your music or your art. They, you know, it’s almost like, I feel like. She got here first and it’s really unfair and I think we sort of have those, I, I, that, I doubt that that’s gone away in the music business or, or is anytime soon, despite different versions of democratization that’s happened. So,

Shawna: 46:23way, but there’s way more now. There’s way more, which I love. There’s so much more diversity. There’s people of all different shapes and sizes and ethnicities and sexual orientations and gender identities. I mean, it’s just like, it’s so widespread now, that, that’s exciting. But you are right. Like maybe even in our wider spread, there might, they may only need one. To represent that group, so we, instead of going from three, we maybe have 12, but still do, there’s still kind of like a niche that’s trying to be filled, and once they fill it, they don’t necessarily need to have anyone else. Yeah.

Glen Erickson: 47:00So let’s, let’s, let me jump back on the collaboration or the collaborators that you’ve worked with really quickly, because I would just like to hear what your experience was in your artistic development then and the role that they played, because you often will hear really one of two versions, which is, this person sort of steered me a little harder in their direction and either they’re not proud of their, back catalog with certain collaborators or that person steered me in a direction that opened me up to these new opportunities and it changed my life. And it doesn’t ever feel like it’s lukewarm in between. And you’ve had some, you know, Hockley Workman is, has had an incredible career and his creative impact, I think, and artistic impact has been very evident. And you got to work with him early on. And then some of the people, Maximilian Jäger. So more recently, so you’ve had some people who have great creative impact and you’ve been able to work with. I’m interested in how you felt that impacted your own sort of artistic, exploration and then expression and sort of maybe I guess what I’m really asking is the authenticity. Did you feel in retrospect, you’ve got the authentic thing you, you probably needed or wanted at the time?

Shawna: 48:24Yeah, collaboration, especially when you come from like a, as a singer songwriter. You know, I, I had never written a song with anyone, and all of my music was very, you know, personal as it tends to be in a singer-songwriter genre. And so I was not super comfortable with collaboration at first, especially when it came to lyrics. I, I still feel that lyrically I don’t collaborate a ton. On with people, with my own music. When I write music for other people, or I’m working with like young songwriters, that have deals and they’re kind of starting to collect, collect music to choose for a first record or something, I’ll write with, with those people. And, and I love that process. I love the process of sitting down with like a 25, 20 5-year-old or a 20-year-old and just being like, okay, let’s find a way to explore your world. But when it came to my. Own I, I’m very connected to the lyrics kind of coming from me, but that being said, I had also never collaborated musically with anyone before, and that has been an amazing journey that I still love. Like I almost hardly ever write alone now. Like musically. I just feel like there’s so many incredible skill sets that people can bring to my world musically that it feels. Crazy to not see what we can make if we just get together one night or in the afternoon and, and just see what happens. So that has been a beautiful surprise and has really stretched me in different directions stylistically and kind of allowed me to learn a lot of different techniques and things. And I also am totally open to, I might, maybe I should try working with a poet. Like I also think that that’s still one area and I haven’t fully unlocked. The music piece was easy to unlock because I was surrounded by incredible musicians. And obviously I’ve known a lot of amazing lyricists, but I also feel like it was a little bit more normal for the songwriters to kind of like write the words and then we would all collaborate on the music. but I’m open to it. That might be a fun thing to try to learn. Yeah.

Glen Erickson: 50:32That’s kind of cool. So, so I, okay, let you, you talked about the lyrics and you talked about, that’s always been a very cool thing. Strictly you thing, and I guess this is really a segue to what I think is what has become the biggest part of your story, which I think is amazing. And maybe if I regret anything about how we’ve kind of lost touch over the years, is that this transition for you that I didn’t get to be part of it.

Shawna: 51:00Oh,

Glen Erickson: 51:02Oh, I got emotional.

Shawna: 51:03you’re gonna make me emotional. We’re gonna start crying. You can be a part of it now.

Glen Erickson: 51:08So, you know, the record, Modern Romantics with Hoxley, there’s lyrics in there. You become very quickly a very sensual songwriter, right? You allow that to be expressed. And so let’s go back to framing things. That’s 2000, you’re writing that in 2010, you’re recording, releasing 2011. This is your second record. you and I had only met a couple of years ago. And if I’m not mistaken, going back to our first conversations about where we met, one of the other things I think we were bonded as that’s when you identified to me. That you were bi, that you were bisexual. And that was your, I wasn’t the first person, but I know that that was in the time frame of you first releasing that to your inner circle.

Shawna: 51:57Yeah. It only took 10 years for me to

Glen Erickson: 52:00Well, that’s

Shawna: 52:00else.

Glen Erickson: 52:01interesting. I don’t know how all of that played out. I know that was a big part of our talk. I know.

Shawna: 52:08Yeah.

Glen Erickson: 52:08You, you sort of referenced like, did we hang out in a hotel in Edmonton? And I said, I think it was in Regina. Cause I remember I was there with my best friend, Greg, right. The filmmaker from Vancouver. And he was in our hotel room doing video all night. And I was, you were going through something. I don’t remember what it was, but I was just hanging out with you in your room for a long time. And it was related to that. And. Also tying back in coming from evangelical circles and you’ve got a lot out there for people to read and see what your journey has been and you’ve talked so beautifully and gracefully and openly about this, about your own version of coming out. The version of coming out first comes with understanding yourself, accepting yourself. Identifying yourself with who, as you use the term, your found family and the people around you that you need to go forward with this, right? I remember getting to see some of the start of it, but how that makes its way into your artistic self too. We have this public self and you allow yourself as an artist to be a public persona. You’re, you’re Adaline. Right. You’ve, you’ve got a performance name and then there’s Shawna and you’re the same person. you’re sort of carrying the same things and different things sometimes is what that means, I think, as an artist. And so I’m interested because all the way back in your second album, you’re allowing sort of this authenticity of yourself to come out in your lyrics. Yeah. Right. Nobody’s guiding you and nobody’s shaping that. And now I know you’re dealing with all of this at the same time. Can you just talk to me about that evolution and what that felt like?

Shawna: 53:59Yeah, you are very sweet and very warm, so thank you. yeah, I mean you get this too’cause you came from the same world I think, like trying to understand your sexuality and I. Your body is really, really difficult when you grow up in worlds that make you feel disconnected from it. especially as a woman, I felt like it was, I had a very complicated relationship with my body. and then I get into this industry that gives me an even more complicated relationship with my body. so I was very disconnected from it. I remember, this is such a wild story. don’t think I’ve ever told this story in a podcast before. here we go.

Glen Erickson: 54:43Thanks. Exclusive, Sean. I appreciate it. That’s such a

Shawna: 54:51when I was sort of working on modern romantics and really starting to try to understand who I was sexually and, and. Try to understand how I wanted to live my life and, and how I wanted to connect with other people. I was still very much going to church and there was a, know, I just won’t even say his name that way. I, he, he won’t. He’s, he’s a kind of a famous person, so I’ll, it’s probably better for me to leave it out, but that’s part of why it makes, that’s part of what makes it so wild. but I’ll leave it out. this person came up to me after a service and said that he had gotten this like, very strong message from God, that he wanted to share with me, but it was very sensitive. It was a sensitive topic. So he asked if he could speak to me after church, so he went. after church. And he said, you know, because of the sensitive nature of this, I’m gonna bring my wife. so now I was like, what is happening? So we go,

Glen Erickson: 55:46thing to do.

Shawna: 55:48So we go outside and, and he said, you know, I was, during the service, I just felt like this. that God wanted me to share with you, that God wants you to feel free to and release your sexuality through your music. Like that, that should be a conduit. that that should be a part of who you are, your who you are sexually and, and. you’re thinking and working through is all a part of who you are and whether you are religious or not. one of the hardest things about coming from a religious space is that you’re, you’re neglecting this sort of key part of who you are. And so I. I felt a bit of permission in that sense to go and start to write more provocative lyrics. I mean, it was a little awkward with family when they’re hearing these, you know, keep me high, which is off of,

Glen Erickson: 56:44Yeah.

Shawna: 56:45modern Romantics, which has really done, it’s been amazing. I’ve gotten that into lots of incredible shows and things. in, in love in like sex scenes and things. But it was sort of really like me being like, what does this feel like? What does it feel like for me to explore this and express this? so in that record, I really got to start feeling that out. And was kind of, yeah, of the first time me embracing the fact that I am a sexual being, I am a flirtatious human, which I always have been. and to, to not feel all of the shame and guilt that.

Glen Erickson: 57:23Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah.

Shawna: 57:28And then of course, in this last record. I took it a step further in the sense that, wasn’t just exploring, you know, sexuality, I was actually like, kind of unveiling the reality that I was bisexual. and I wanted the music to kind of be a part of that journey because in 2020 my album, dear Illusion, I had released a song on there that had kind of like spilled the beans and. So it felt appropriate for me to follow up with something that was like a little bit more like, here’s the real truth. Here’s really what I’ve been grappling with. Here’s what it’s been like to be a minister’s kid and to be bisexual and my brain, and try to like, think of dismantling my entire family and embarrassing them and alienating everyone. And my, my, my brother is a pastor and embarrassing him and losing my nephews, I mean. The, the spiral is wild in your brain. So that was why I thought, I felt like I needed to write a record to kind of give a voice for a lot of those feelings that so many people

Glen Erickson: 58:36Yeah. This might be slightly personal, but was there therapy involved over those years? Like how did you find, how did you find your voice for that? How did you find courage for that? And even more when you’re talking about, you know, you’re like, I don’t want to embarrass my brother. I don’t want to embarrass my family. I mean. Like, let’s, let’s set aside even you trying to figure out how to come out and when that timing would be in your life and what’s right for you. Just what you’re talking about, the expressing of your sexuality, right? As a, as a woman in song in our society and putting that out there, which is extremely vulnerable.

Shawna: 59:18Yeah.

Glen Erickson: 59:19even before that, like you’re wrestling with these things and whether, and you’re starting to own things that you. Probably a therapist would tell you, you shouldn’t be owning, right? I’m wondering, I’m wondering how, you know, you navigated that. I think, I think this is relatable to everybody. Like, how did you navigate the shame, feelings, the guilt, the owning of what I’m doing to other people just by accepting who I am and being Open about it. Like

Shawna: 59:51Yeah,

Glen Erickson: 59:52what were the, what were the things that kind of got you over that, that mountain?

Shawna: 59:57that is such a good question because the answer, which is so wild, is I had zero therapy through that time, but now I am in immersive intense therapy,

Glen Erickson: 1:00:05Hmm.

Shawna: 1:00:07I feel, I feel like what happened is I was exploring these things and there was a higher part of me and, and wonderful friends and people I knew in the L-G-B-T-Q community that were guiding me through some of these things that I was able to process alongside them, which was helpful. And then when released ghost. This crazy thing happened where I had the song on a TV show. It connected with a ton of people. I started getting messages from people all over the world, kind of like reconciling their sexuality and their spirituality. And from that I was able to start a nonprofit and the nonprofit community we spent, we’ve, it’s been around now for four years. In the first three years, I was literally in group sessions with hundreds of religious

Glen Erickson: 1:01:03Mm-hmm.

Shawna: 1:01:04religious or former religious LGBTQ plus people. And so we were just having these chats, which is a form of therapy. It was like we were able to be see, oh, this is, this is how we people please. Wow, that’s a. Big common denominator for people from religious worlds. A lot of people pleasing, a lot of lack of boundaries. so in that sense I was like, oh, I can see that. I can see that. But because I was leading this group, there was a piece of me that felt like I needed to have it together them. Not that they asked me to, but again, minister’s kid. I went straight into like. Now this is like my new ministry, quote

Glen Erickson: 1:01:47leadership. Yeah.

Shawna: 1:01:48Yes. Because I was so used to being in that role that I think that I was processing some of it, but there was like chunks of it that I wasn’t, and then when I wrote hymnal, that was another way. That record was another way for me to process it. But recently, like within the last six months, I have realized deep. Unprocessed trauma that I am now four years in to coming out or, and letting everybody know that I’m just, now I have a therapist and we’re working through it’cause it’s sneaky and there’s layers. There’s layers that you don’t even see. And then you’re having these like. Responses that I have now found words for, like I have these responses that I’ve never understood and I have someone saying to me, well, that’s a trauma response. Like you doing this, you feeling like everything needs to be all good or all bad is a trauma response because you came

Glen Erickson: 1:02:52Okay.

Shawna: 1:02:52a world where everything was black and white and I feel uncomfortable with things not being black and white. So there’s all these little things

Glen Erickson: 1:03:02Yeah.

Shawna: 1:03:02realizing I have to work through. Yeah.

Glen Erickson: 1:03:04No, you’re right. Like, Shawna, I’m 54 when in the year 2000, when I turned 30, I had been working at the church for five years and I quit the church. And for lots of reasons, and I very soon after did the still a pastoral. I formed a small group of like minded people who felt disenfranchised, called it Open Conversation, and I wanted to lead that charge. And I let that unravel because it was not meant to be, and it was not the right thing. And my whole life has been pulling those threats till now, but I’m And I still am identifying religious trauma from those things. And I don’t say that and I and I’m sure you would agree with me. I don’t say that to demean the people who have been in my life and who believe and love wholeheartedly. like that path and their communities, right? not at all, but the fact is I have deep residual patterns earned based on that. And you’re right. The, the black or whiteness, the acceptance of things, the release of shame, And guilt is a forever pattern if in your youth and formative years that, and again, this isn’t only to people in religious circles, it’s just a fact of life that all therapy is teaching us that, you know, the things that happen in our formative years are there with us. That child is with us into our adulthood, and it’s just a matter of when you decide to go and confront it, right? So, nowhere near on the scale of what you’ve had to experience or accept about yourself, but Relatedly, I can remember, you know, my sweet mom, the first time she found me with pornography. And, I’ve never told this story either. So here we go. I’ll never forget, you know, and it was a guy’s magazines that he asked if I could hide. And of course, I did. I was so curious. I was more than willing to hide them. And I brought them home, went off to a sleepover after like a church youth group event and come home. And my mom had cleaned my room and found this. So here’s, here’s what is why that’s an indelible memory is that she used the phrase about how it makes her feel as a woman.

Shawna: 1:05:34Right.

Glen Erickson: 1:05:34I’m not, I’m not going to like step into that or her experience, but those words were also framed from a religious church going upbringing. and immediately left me with shame

Shawna: 1:05:48Yes.

Glen Erickson: 1:05:49for my life around a natural curiosity

Shawna: 1:05:53Yep.

Glen Erickson: 1:05:54everybody should have. I’m not making any statements or judgment on that industry or the effects that it has on people and addictions. I’m just saying the natural human curiosity of an adolescent. So, But it was, it’s so deeply housed in the religious thing. So I, you know, those things stay with us so deep until we get there. And so I love that you are so willing to talk about that and share that your song, by the way, ghost, it’s going to sound like I just have guests on my podcast so I can blow smoke up their ass, but that has to be. One of the most incredible songs I’ve ever heard.

Shawna: 1:06:35Oh, thank.

Glen Erickson: 1:06:35One of the ones that still the vocal performance is, I can’t imagine anybody singing that song better. I’m not just, I’m sincerely just not trying to butter you up. I, I would, I would be so proud to play that anytime, anywhere to somebody and say, this is one of the greatest vocal. sets of choices around such a powerful song and the arrangement is incredible and I can see why it had such Impact on that show right on on the Winona Earp. Is that that’s the show that it had that significant moment on

Shawna: 1:07:08That’s the show. Yeah.

Glen Erickson: 1:07:10Yeah, so

Shawna: 1:07:11Thank you.

Glen Erickson: 1:07:12has how has that I’m wondering where If we can intersect again the personal Shawna with Adaline

Shawna: 1:07:20Mm-hmm.

Glen Erickson: 1:07:21as the difference between songs on modern romantics, not dismissing your other work in between, but I feel like I can tie a thread between those, which I felt was so outgoing and coming out ish on modern romantics, even in your expression and artistic choices. But it felt like at that time, in my perspective, it’s like you were like pulling all of this noise around you. And making this big scene. And then I listened to ghost in a couple of the other songs, like waist, waist down and stuff on, on that album. And it feels like such a more realized artist and you’re in front and you are the scene, you are the noise. And so how did that help you turn that corner? Cause it’s so interesting, like in sync with these deeply personal transitions.

Shawna: 1:08:10Hmm. That’s a good question. Well, first thank you for sharing what you did about your childhood. Before I answer that question, I just wanna just touch on what you said and, and sort of. Let everyone know, especially if they don’t know that it’s especially intense when you are a pastor’s child you know, your, your mother and your father are leaders of the church. And because there’s a weird thing that happens where

Glen Erickson: 1:08:36Hmm.

Shawna: 1:08:37is feel even more connected to God. like, it’s like they, their, they’re there. My father was. My father, but also my spiritual leader. and so there was like a blurring there. and it’s also hard as an adult when I have religious trauma for me not to feel like I wanna protect him because he’s not my sole source of it. It was all around me in many different ways. So I just wanted to

Glen Erickson: 1:09:03It’s a good point.

Shawna: 1:09:04Yeah, I just wanted to touch on that’cause I just was listening to you thinking that’s especially hard when you’re a pastor’s kid. but yeah, the. Modern Romantics. I would agree that I think that in dear illusion, and that’s just a natural thing as you’re, you’re an artist. I was much more confident. I had been doing it for a long time and I think I had really embraced, I. ballot, embraced the, the art of sort of having these like really soft moments where you kind of strip away the noise. I think it’s funny’cause there’s a song on romantics called The Noise. yeah. I was a lot noisier. I was a big Radiohead fan and I, I I loved like these like cacophony, like layered

Glen Erickson: 1:09:47I thought I always thought, do you ever hear blonde redhead

Shawna: 1:09:52Yes,

Glen Erickson: 1:09:53era? That’s where I connected. Sorry, I interrupted, but that’s the connection that was made.

Shawna: 1:09:59So good. Yeah, just like very like beautiful textural sounds. I mean, some people are just masters at doing it and I, when I, when I made, modern romantics, I think that I. The sound of it was like really important. Like I feel like that was sort of my focus. I mean, obviously it meant what I was singing, but with dear illusion, it did feel like the lyrics, what I was trying to say, what I wanted people to feel was very much more the intention. And then the music became, you know, the conduit for that intention and. not necessarily better than the others. In fact, I listen to like a lot of instrumental music. I love cigarro, like I love, I don’t know what he’s saying. but it evokes such an intense emotional moment for me.

Glen Erickson: 1:10:46Great reference.

Shawna: 1:10:47like. One’s better than the other. It’s just that it was important for me, even when I went to make hymnal, I had this idea of what I wanted it sound like, and I kind of wanted it to sound like, like a Jamie xx record. Like have like this like cool kind of palsy thing in the background. And then, and when Chris Cody and I started working on hymnal, it became so clear that it’s like this record isn’t about what it sounds like. Like

Glen Erickson: 1:11:15Mm

Shawna: 1:11:15isn’t, this isn’t what that is. In fact, the next one might be, I might just wanna do a really cool dance record. Who knows?

Glen Erickson: 1:11:22hmm.

Shawna: 1:11:22hymnal felt like the words really mattered because it was a follow up to me. Sharing about this, there was this community of people that had formed, I had been listening to their stories and, and drawing inspiration from their words. And that’s why hymnal opens with little snippets of their voices, like lyrics are king that record. So I think that also can contribute to why like things sound different. but yeah, I wanted really, very, very much for the words to kind of like lead those records.

Glen Erickson: 1:11:53Yeah, I mean, I, I sort of, you know, a little tongue in cheeky of sort of referenced the evolution of artists. Adaline with personal life of Shawna, right? but and then maybe it feels sometimes if we’re, you know, doing like retrospectives or talking about the way a public looks at an artist in your life, it’s easy to sort of talk in two different lines, I think. But I guess what’s interesting, and that’s why I wanted sort of your input and answer about how you developed to that point. And, and you just described a really great synergy just in in who you are. Like, it doesn’t sound like there’s a difference. And I wrote the line down last night when I was thinking about this. At what point did you maybe realize that your personal life evolution actually was your career development? You know,

Shawna: 1:12:46I don’t know. I,

Glen Erickson: 1:12:47was it the era of a ghost? Is it, did it come together or is it just a blurred line over time for you?

Shawna: 1:12:54blurred line. I think also it just really depends on the genre of music you’re in. Like I often, I have friends that are, they make more like party music or rock and roll. And so for them it’s like they’re think they’re singing about like a good time on a Friday night. I think in those they, they kind of have more separation between their, their inner world, but I think. Because of the songwriting that I do, it was always very like, you know, emotive and, and orchestral. It always kind of drew out these, this importance for me to just really share who I am. and I think that’s why when I wrote Ghost, I never planned on anyone hearing it. Like I didn’t think anyone would hear that song because I knew by releasing ghosts that I would have to come out, It was just so, so, so raw, lyrically, and wanna put it out. And I realized I couldn’t be a songwriter anymore if I was gonna have to continually shield, because I. The kind of music I like to make

Glen Erickson: 1:13:56Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Shawna: 1:14:03don’t always have to pull from my own life like I’m pulling, I can pull from other things or, or what I observe around me, but I’ve also, in a very selfish way, always found writing to be such an incredible, cathartic that really allows me to, to see. You know, to, to actually get out of the fog and be like, oh, this is what I’m feeling. So in some ways it’s like, partly, it’s partly why Taylor Swift is so popular. I mean, it’s just, you know, diary, diary writing. It’s like, I wanna try to figure out who I am. So in that sense, I think the line’s always been blurred. It became very obvious that this was part of the journey when I was having to like, sort of unveil things that had potential consequences

Glen Erickson: 1:14:45Yeah.

Shawna: 1:14:46my family, for, you know, the people in my life, for my, my manager. Like people that relied potentially on me having a career. you know, the, it ups the ante when you’re about to like, kind of disclose parts that are really personal.

Glen Erickson: 1:15:00I think there’s also in there, there’s a little nice piece of insight for people who are songwriters or aspiring songwriters or creators like that, that you sort of alluded to because we often do this in a cathartic way. Thing and a lot of people talk about it that way. It’s very common. I think it’s more often than not, but it’s also So exhausting and if you don’t learn as a creative person, right? how to just discipline creativity without having to tap into the deep wells that are difficult to navigate I think yeah, I don’t know. I think that’s great Advice and just how you’ve learned that over time and been able to express that I do want to just maybe bookend a little bit of our conversation about your own personal like development in your story. And, you know, you eventually came out and you went and you. You know, I’ve read about it, how you went and saw your family and what that moment was like, which inspired the song at the end of your hymnal record, which is beautiful by the way. And,

Shawna: 1:16:11Yeah.

Glen Erickson: 1:16:12and that is such a wonderful story. And like you alluded to the community that’s come out of it and that you’ve been a part of, essentially leading this community. and it’s the bad believer community. And I, it would be a big mistake if I didn’t at least pause to make sure. You could tell people listening how to connect with that community.

Shawna: 1:16:34Yeah. So yeah, bad believer is basically a community for anyone who is LGBTQ plus that comes from kind of religious home or religious world. You know, sometimes we grow up in parts of the world where religion is, is just a part of culture as well. so. A lot of people that come into our nonprofit space, there’s often a feel of, because we use the word religious trauma, I think that sometimes people think there needs to be like this really intense story

Glen Erickson: 1:17:05Mm hm.

Shawna: 1:17:06like they are allowed or have permission to be a part of it. But we often are letting everyone know, like if there’s ever been a moment in your life where there’s been any kind of like shame that has felt like it’s from a message that God is. Angry or, or disgraced or that you don’t, that you’re no longer able or, or deserving to have a relationship with God. that those sort of narratives are things that we dismantle. And the whole idea with bad believer is not for people to believe anything. we have. We, you know, we still do have people who identify as Christian or whatever, you know, different religions, but we also also have a lot of people who are atheists and pagan. So it’s, it’s not so much about what you believe, it’s more that you feel that you have the permission to

Glen Erickson: 1:17:55Mm hm. Mm hm.

Shawna: 1:18:01and that’s why, you know, our whole tag of our organization is that your spiritual life is your birthright because a lot of queer people don’t feel like they’re allowed. To connect in that way. So if you’re someone who is, you know, lgbtq plus and, and sort of feels like there are narratives there to dismantle and work through and parts of your spiritual life that you wanna explore, that, that’s what bad believers for. And you can find us, at Bad believer.org. And then we’re also on Instagram at Bad Believer Community.

Glen Erickson: 1:18:33Okay. I’m glad you said all that. That’s really important. I know a lot of people, of course, right, would identify with that struggle, you know, not so immersive as you and I experienced, you know, having been part of a family that was, you know, anchored in so deeply, but just, you know, The amount of people that just, you know, went to church or their family had strong religious ties or groups and sometimes it’s deeply generational and sometimes it’s just slightly servicey, but there’s tons of intersect and tons of stories and, I just want to say thank you, your vulnerability and willingness to share your story. You’ve been sharing it a lot in a lot of places and, I’m so proud of you and, you’ve always made me a very happy person and filled me with joy whenever I’m around you and, After so long, you know, this has been just an incredible hour plus to spend with you. And, but I just, I, I need to say two things. One is I think that you’re such an incredible artist and I’m proud of the work you’ve done as an artist and that you keep doing it. And you sort of mentioned sort of the humorous, but incredibly accurate name I chose for the podcast. And it’s, for obvious reasons. but I’m inspired by the people who have stayed with it because, it’s just speak so much to who you are. And, there’s so much that I think people, if they just go and find you, and if they have been following you can be so, inspired by and so I hope everybody will because you’ve been inspiring for me and And the other half obviously that I just really appreciate the grace and humility But still the tenacity and the willingness to take responsibility in the community that you’ve become a part of and I think that’s a beautiful example, too, both in our artistic and, and musical communities, and then the communities we find ourselves in, in general, in large. So, both just incredible examples, and I’m really proud that we still get to call each other friends. Ha, ha, ha. Ha, ha, ha. Ha, ha, ha. Ha, ha, ha. Ha, ha, ha.

Shawna: 1:20:44It’s gonna be like what gets me outta bed in the morning. On a, I mean, thank you. I, I think what we do is it can be very difficult, it can be very hard to feel, especially now with social media and things. It can be very hard to know, you know, how much you know, should I keep doing this? Like, does it matter? and I think that it goes back to. Us sharing our stories and, and being creative and, and just knowing that that’s a beautiful part of being human, that we get to continue to explore. And I’m kind of, of the mind now that this next group of songs that I write that I just finished writing, That I’m, I’m sort of at peace with it. If no one hears them, that I still know that it’s important for me just to continue to be creative, and that not every creative endeavor we do has to be some kind of productive, big marketing splash. Like sometimes it’s good just to remind ourselves to create without intention.

Glen Erickson: 1:21:43Yeah. It doesn’t have to be a pin on the trajectory of your skyrocket to something.

Shawna: 1:21:51No, and I think that the thing that I realized through Ghost and through that is the stuff that I plan out is never the stuff that lands anyways. Do,

Glen Erickson: 1:22:02Hmm.

Shawna: 1:22:03do you know what I mean? Like,

Glen Erickson: 1:22:04Yeah, that’s great.

Shawna: 1:22:05it’s, it’s better just to, to write and, and be as authentic as possible. And, you know, if you’re a very vulnerable songwriter, that involves sharing parts of your life. And if you’re a jam band, that just means creating like a groove that you love and, and, and to just keep putting that out there. And that’s, that authenticity connects with people, but it’s, it’s sometimes we can get. Go off course when we try really hard to kind of force something. So

Glen Erickson: 1:22:29Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Shawna: 1:22:59lay our heads down on the, we don’t have to feel embarrassed or feel like we have to, any kind of shame or guilt about not making it quote unquote, but that we

Glen Erickson: 1:23:08Yeah.

Shawna: 1:23:09realize the value that we have in our more, you know, quiet careers where, you know, we, if, if you can touch one person, that that means

Glen Erickson: 1:23:19Yeah. That’s exactly it. Mm.

Shawna: 1:23:31and, and, and tired and frustrated and a little bit, I don’t wanna say embarrassed, I don’t know if that’s the right word, but like what? What, I’m sure you’ve thought of this with your podcast. What are some of the words that you use?

Glen Erickson: 1:23:45Yeah, I think that there’s, a sense of, belonging because we’re always in a, in a validation game and cycle and this sense of do I really belong or how long do I have

Shawna: 1:23:59Mm-hmm.

Glen Erickson: 1:24:00And am I only as good as the last good thing that got posted on social media? And how long will that carry me on to the next one? And if it’s all about the hustle and grind, do I really have what it takes? takes. And I think there’s just all these things that just get hung on us like heavy weights around our neck. And, I think hearing stories like yours are easy to identify with. I hope there’s points and pieces right that people like you talked about at the very beginning, you know, about the backhanded compliment, but at least some people were trying to say that they felt seen just by you stepping in front and stepping out. And, I think that that’s, there’s lots of ways that can happen. And I just hope that maybe through conversations like this, which I love, Maybe some of that can happen for some people, too. So I appreciate that, Shawna. I appreciate it.

Shawna: 1:24:54And I think that anytime someone comes and says something to you and they’re coming from a place of wanting to compliment if there’s any resistance, it’s probably just something that we’re, that we need to work through.

Glen Erickson: 1:25:04It’s our own thing. Hmm.

Shawna: 1:25:07So I’m grateful for every woman who found inspiration in my curves and I just wish I could back and feel as confident then as I do now. But that’s, but that’s part of what life is, is you just

Glen Erickson: 1:25:20Yeah.

Shawna: 1:25:21try to keep healing that little girl and, and enjoy the, enjoy the process. Yeah.

Glen Erickson: 1:25:27Yeah. You embody beauty inside out. I’m so thankful that you’re still in my life and, we’re going to end the podcast, but we’re going to have to keep chatting and, and figure out how to and, and continue to be friends. Right. So

Shawna: 1:25:42that. I’d love that.

Glen Erickson: 1:25:44thank you, Shawna.

Shawna: 1:25:45Thank you.

Glen Erickson: 1:25:46Bye bye.

Shawna: 1:25:47Bye.

alexi: 1:25:56I didn’t do it today.

Glen Erickson: 1:25:57it didn’t do the freeze.

alexi: 1:25:58No.

Glen Erickson: 1:25:59you doing, Lexi?

alexi: 1:26:00Oh, I’m so good. How are you, Glen?

Glen Erickson: 1:26:03Oh, no, you’re not supposed to. That’s, uh, no, I don’t think we’re there yet.

alexi: 1:26:09Oh.

Glen Erickson: 1:26:10we’re there. I don’t think we’re there. That’s okay. to try to push that one through on a, like, live podcast where I don’t have any recourse. Uh, welcome to episode seven. Episode seven with Adaline, also known as my friend, Shawna Beesley, which, I recognize, I don’t know whether that’s confusing. I hope people caught on right away early on. Obviously we’re pretty familiar with female artists with one name that isn’t their real name in the world, so, be okay, but Ad I’ll just say, and then henceforth I’m probably gonna refer to her as Shawna, just to be really clear.

alexi: 1:26:50Right away in the podcast. I think it made sense.

Glen Erickson: 1:26:52yeah, I didn’t really have a choice, especially that the podcast felt like such an instant reunion. And, and to be clear, right, like a lot of these have been the first time I’ve seen people that I’ve crossed paths or spent a lot of time with back a long time, like 20

alexi: 1:27:08Yeah.

Glen Erickson: 1:27:08of them. And, Yeah, this one felt a little different sure. This one was, um, that I had a very sort of unique connection and bond with around shared experience

alexi: 1:27:20Mm-hmm.

Glen Erickson: 1:27:21I wouldn’t be able to have with most people. And so we became fast friends and went through a lot of stuff in her life and incredible things It was, uh, definitely had some vulnerable moments for me. Um, yeah, I, I don’t know what else to say other than, it just sort of hit me in the middle of talking to her that all these things had happened in this timeframe when we had kind of lost touch, and then I just felt really, really bad about it. So it just, you know,

alexi: 1:27:57Mm-hmm.

Glen Erickson: 1:27:57control it just hit me and came out, but. Uh, it was very sweet. It was for me, a very sweet conversation.

alexi: 1:28:04Yeah.

Glen Erickson: 1:28:05I’ve had to listen in the edits quite a bit to try to regain context and the flow because it, it became really, I guess, maybe personal for me. But anyhow, I’m curious as to what you heard, because I felt a little, to be just honest, I just felt a little too close to the conversation at some points.

alexi: 1:28:27I think it was like, I mean, this sounds like. Maybe bad, but it did feel like maybe the most personal conversation of the seven episodes. Like,

Glen Erickson: 1:28:37Mm-hmm.

alexi: 1:28:38the way that, in, in other episodes, you know, there was shared kind of stories and memories, and then like very evidently shared experiences, just like within music. But I think this is the first one that like opened up of shared experience. In life. Life and then further, like in life that led to music, which was kind of a shared thing for you guys. I thought it was really interesting. I mean, you and I had talked about, Shawna and like just, I don’t know, topics of in and around that, like just recently to do with the episode and just before in life. Um, for sure. So there was a number of things that like. I was listening to and I, they rang familiar to me, but like, hearing you guys both talk about it was interesting. I think she was very, very well spoken too. which is great. I like that she talked about too, um, her doing like commercials and jingles and,

Glen Erickson: 1:29:32Yeah, I mean.

alexi: 1:29:34I, I don’t know. I just think that’s something that anyone who hasn’t had any kind of like a peephole into the music industry, like not even just the scene, just the industry, like it’s just something you don’t know. and it was interesting for me because, was it Dan who said it first? Dan had said

Glen Erickson: 1:29:54About what?

alexi: 1:29:54like, just participating in as an artist, like. Jingles and other creative forms that aren’t, you know, that creative, I guess, but to make

Glen Erickson: 1:30:03yeah, I think we referenced it with Dan. I think we talked about it with Jared of the

alexi: 1:30:08Yeah. Jared a lot. Yeah.

Glen Erickson: 1:30:10because they’ve dipped into that

alexi: 1:30:12Right.

Glen Erickson: 1:30:14Similarly to Shawna, you know, as a way that they found to use, obviously their skill and their.

alexi: 1:30:20Mm-hmm.

Glen Erickson: 1:30:21Their passions, although they’re not gonna be passionate about jingles, but they’re passionate about being able to constantly create. And if some of their creations can just be used very functionally, for lack of a better term, to pay the bills. I guess the part that’s interesting for me always is I’ve lived and walked through enough circles in the music business to know how either cynical or in a way immaturely, judgmental people might be about not being a true artist. If you start to do things like that,

alexi: 1:30:55Yeah.

Glen Erickson: 1:30:56when really you’re paying the bills and keeping the rent and the power on, and not having to work at Starbucks for.

alexi: 1:31:05Yeah, it’s still like in the same kinda semicircle like, yeah, I don’t know. It was maybe one of the least interesting things that she had to say. And yeah, it was just really interesting for me from looking at not just that episode, but like your podcast so far.

Glen Erickson: 1:31:22Mm-hmm.

alexi: 1:31:22I don’t think I realized that. so many artists participated in that and it’s just really interesting to hear all of their different takes on it.’cause they’re all quite similar.

Glen Erickson: 1:31:31And you have to get your foot in the door the same way you do as an with your CR own creative work, right? That

alexi: 1:31:38Yeah.

Glen Erickson: 1:31:38have to get your foot in the door. She told the story about how that person basically. I kind of saw her and kind of plucked her out and, and gave her the opportunity and it’s still the same person that she works with sometimes. And so no different than all of these stories is that it’s built around relationships and it’s built

alexi: 1:31:58Yeah.

Glen Erickson: 1:31:58somebody, somebody always has to take a chance on you, you know,

alexi: 1:32:03Mm-hmm.

Glen Erickson: 1:32:04music, and that’s. Uh uh, that’s something I should pursue talking to other people about more.’cause I find that always fascinating and in this sort of side career. And I guess one of my favorite things we pointed out in the show was like, I’m somebody that you may never have heard of, but you’ve all heard my voice like to say something along those lines was really and, and I think that, I think that it’s so interesting that you. Could have that kinda happen, that people don’t realize how much it happens, like you said, and she’s had like over 70 or 80 placements on TV shows and movies, and when she says like, I’m the voice, you know, but you didn’t know it was me. Like she’s been in, like, her clips have been like the. End of episode emotional heavies on like Grey’s anatomy type thing. we touched on briefly about this almost viral in a sense. You’d call it to a very popular indie, I’m gonna call it indie show, it’s on AMC, the wine owner or, just because of the different subject matter and. And anyhow, like, like she’s had like some great successes that way that most people

alexi: 1:33:19Yeah.

Glen Erickson: 1:33:20which was quite stunning. And I just, like you said, yeah, you’re right. She was very articulate. Like she made it really clear and told the story really and easily, which I really appreciated.

alexi: 1:33:33You know, there’s a, like the other, the other thing, and I think you’ll be able to touch on this, like, I like the way she spoke about, like putting out music. I mean, you called it like sensual, but just like putting out music that was. Becoming more personable to her and being like, worried about how it was gonna be perceived by not just people, but like family and friends. and then also just like how that creates a reflection of her. And then again, like the people around her. Um, because I think like with any kind of artist, especially, um, musical artists is like when you put yourself into your work. Showing people can be like a really hard step, let alone like releasing it and having that reflected. yeah, and the way she articulated that was just very, I don’t know, it was like unique but in a very like, relatable way.

Glen Erickson: 1:34:27Hmm.

alexi: 1:34:27And I was wondering like related to the, the way she said that having, you know, you have music out that’s. You, it was like, was that something that you were like relating on?

Glen Erickson: 1:34:38yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, hers is in a different way. Like we

alexi: 1:34:41Mm-hmm.

Glen Erickson: 1:34:41on her, sort of her increasing level of sensuality I called it she was just being vulnerable with. You know, our emotions aren’t compartmentalized and our feelings aren’t compartmentalized. So if you’re just a sensual person, if you feel things in a way that is, I don’t have to fill in the blanks for everybody, but And just to be able to feel like you want to express that and, and we all turn to music a lot of times

alexi: 1:35:09Yeah.

Glen Erickson: 1:35:10draw that out of ourselves sometimes, right? Because music can do that to us. You can literally play music that makes people feel a certain way and she’s just putting all of that together as how she wants to express herself. And it’s very difficult. I don’t think, okay, lemme put it this way. I don’t think I ever really understood. How powerful that was until I released my own music.

alexi: 1:35:34The vulnerability.

Glen Erickson: 1:35:35And I, I always knew about it.

alexi: 1:35:38Yeah.

Glen Erickson: 1:35:38it with friends to a degree, but that record that I put out right before the pandemic, like when I made my ep, what I did at that time was I was. I was so desperate to finish songs and I needed to do that. I needed to create something for myself, right? And I was struggling and I was having trouble. And the only way I knew to do it, because everybody knows I like to wear black. Um, interested in exploring just deeper emotional. Subject matter. I like to get deep in conversations right away. The only way I knew how to pull that project outta myself to write about, we joke and we call it sad dad music, but it was deeper painful sentiments, things from relationships. the, the sense of like loss and longing and regret and disappointment. The things that are really hard to get over. That things are hard to swallow, that you just kind of get through. And I don’t know if you know, because you were a lot younger in 2018 and 2019 than you are now, I went through like of 2017 going into 2018 when I started writing for, it

alexi: 1:36:54Yeah.

Glen Erickson: 1:36:55felt very dark to me

alexi: 1:36:57Yeah.

Glen Erickson: 1:36:58I was allowing myself to sit with all those things.

alexi: 1:37:01Right.

Glen Erickson: 1:37:02one difficult moment. But then when it came time to release it, and one of the very first comments I got from somebody who’s known me for a long time, not in a deep way, was their surprise over the subject matter

alexi: 1:37:19Yeah.

Glen Erickson: 1:37:19I’m such a happy, outgoing, charismatic person. So they couldn’t put the two together. And that was a challenge for me.

alexi: 1:37:29And that’s why, that’s why I ask.’cause I mean your music, like, I mean your ep, that ep, like, I think exactly how you described it is exactly how it comes off of like those deeper emotions, especially of like kind of longing and all of, all of what you had just said. But I think like releasing at a time where you have like, you know. A job you love and like a wife and kids that you’re happy with and, you know, having these like really positive life experiences and are like in a, seemingly, from like an outside perspective in such a good place. But then like, And like having like not released music for a long time, like there was no like window for other people in your life to kind of see that side of you had you not had some deep conversation. Um,

Glen Erickson: 1:38:19a good point.

alexi: 1:38:21then it’s like kind of like you’re dropping a bomb on everyone. Like that’s how I would feel. It’s just like, oh, hey.

Glen Erickson: 1:38:26a dark bomb on

alexi: 1:38:28Yeah, that’s what I mean. Like I, how. By the way, this, his me, like, it’s just that kinda concept, like I just, that vulnerability is a.

Glen Erickson: 1:38:41I was worried. I was like, are people gonna come up to me and be like, are you having troubles at home? Are you, blah, blah. You know what I mean? All this kind of stuff. Are you depressed? Are you, yeah. And. Anyhow. It was just a very small taste for me compared to what other people, and especially someone like Shawna had to go through where she has her song Ghost Blow Up at the end of the Wynona Earp Show, of go viral. She’s getting all kinds of press for it. It’s like all over the place, and it is such a raw song that she, by that point, 10 years later, after first telling me about her bisexuality. It is almost her hand is played to the degree.’cause everyone wrestles for various lengths of time in various ways in their own journey, the point where they come out to their family are a very religious, conservative family. So that song and that vulnerability for her forced that moment, which is humongous. I can’t even, can’t even fathom. What she went through so much. I think that’s why I got a little emotional in that conversation because it just hit me in the moment. Like, I cannot fathom what you went through. So,

alexi: 1:40:00Especially when you’ve had of it.

Glen Erickson: 1:40:02yeah, she’s just so, she’s so brave and she’s so strong and I just admire her and love her so much. So I’m very thankful for that conversation. Yeah. Thank you. Um, I’m really happy that it worked out. Okay, well let’s switch gears away from me talking about my own music or anything like that. and just to wrap up talking about music like we like to and where we’re at right now, really quick.

alexi: 1:40:33Yes.

Glen Erickson: 1:40:34so it’s like, so we just had like the Grammys and stuff on. there’s all kinds of talk about the stuff that went on there. But the other thing that just has happened in the music world is the new run of the reality shows, like The Voice and American

alexi: 1:40:49Alright.

Glen Erickson: 1:40:50back up right now. and I always, I think one of the things that fascinates me about those shows it’s just a bunch of people singing cover songs, right. Like the sense that we’re looking for the next big artist, but we’re gonna force them to choose from a catalog week after week after week, year after year, season 20 seasons into these shows. And they’re just singing cover songs and who can sing’em best. And sometimes you hear some real original takes on them, which are really inspiring and cool. and most of the time they fall terribly, terribly flat. And, um. Yeah, hard to see who the artist really is. So in, in spirit of that, I wondered if it would be fun to just talk about our favorite cover songs, and I wonder if there’s ever a point when we have, like, we dedicate like a, a post fame or something to just talking about some covers because I’ve got like this massive collection going on Spotify.

alexi: 1:41:51A playlist of That’s a great idea.

Glen Erickson: 1:41:53My playlist is called Under Indie Covers. I think it’s very cute. It’s a very cute title and I’m very proud of it.

alexi: 1:42:00Yep.

Glen Erickson: 1:42:01it’s in all, it’s in all caps, but there’s so many. I was trying to look at some of my favorites, but I’m wondering like, do you know off the top of your head

alexi: 1:42:10I could name two off the top of.

Glen Erickson: 1:42:11Okay, I wanna know what there.

alexi: 1:42:15First one I was, it’s the one I, I’ve played for you a couple times lately. It’s, I’m on fire, but it’s the cover by Joe P, who I’ve talked about on here before, but he only does like, what was it, like a minute and a half? Yes.

Glen Erickson: 1:42:29and a half. He like, starts singing into it right away. There’s really no instrumental bridges or breaks.

alexi: 1:42:36No.

Glen Erickson: 1:42:37like. Verse choruses it, verse into that little little bridge that goes right back into a verse in a chorus. And he’s done. And you’re right.

alexi: 1:42:46It just leaves you wanting more.

Glen Erickson: 1:42:47way too soon.

alexi: 1:42:48Yeah.

Glen Erickson: 1:42:49it’s, uh, there’s a lot of covers of that song. You’re right. It’s

alexi: 1:42:53Yeah.

Glen Erickson: 1:42:53his little take on it though,

alexi: 1:42:55It’s good.

Glen Erickson: 1:42:55P If anybody doesn’t, know Joe P I’m On Fire.

alexi: 1:42:59So good. and then the other one is like probably all time favorite covered last. I don’t know, year and a bit is, um, this is also just like a song that has 5 million covers, but, um, linger. But there’s a cover by Royal Otis

Glen Erickson: 1:43:15Yeah.

alexi: 1:43:15and it’s like, not only is it the cover, it’s in one of those, like when studios do little like sessions, um, it’s like Sirius XM session. Like

Glen Erickson: 1:43:24Sirus.

alexi: 1:43:26what is it? Okay. I don’t. This was of my head. Um,

Glen Erickson: 1:43:30okay. Now, you know.

alexi: 1:43:32they have the little session and they do it, and it’s fantastic every time.

Glen Erickson: 1:43:37You’re right. that’s actually a really good one. There’s actually another, Who is it by? There’s another version of that that I actually like and I think it’s like a Spotify session. Oh no it’s not. But it’s uh, a group that I don’t even know their work, otherwise it’s

alexi: 1:43:52Oh.

Glen Erickson: 1:43:52A Freedom Fry. Like Fry, FRY, and they do a cover of Linger also. That’s pretty good. And then they also do a cover of Smashing Pumpkins 1979 actually, which is really cool too. So those are two really good ones and I’m glad that you could pull those off the top of your head.’cause I didn’t tell you how to prepare at all, so that’s fantastic. So my, don’t know that I can say all time favorite, but if you were, if we were having a conversation with a new group of people and I had to give them one song to go listen to, it would be Andrew Bell’s cover of Fade Into You by Mazzy Star, which is, um. Maybe to me, and this is gonna sound sacrilege, but this is when a cover is great, maybe better than the original, which might be absolute sacrilege to people. But, I’ll explain like quickly for me the reason it’s better and I’ve, I’ve made you sit and listen to me like geek out on all the little details and layers, but slide guitar and the use of a much more kind of reverb washed. Out, aesthetic, uh, both in the vocal, particularly in the vocal, but in the slide guitar. and that is, so hits the emotion where it and Mazzy Star too, but I feel like it hits that one pinpoint piece of emotional weight to the song even better because of it anyhow.

alexi: 1:45:21I love it.

Glen Erickson: 1:45:22love that cover. And then the second one, which absolutely kills me and. it also is heavily reverbed guitar and washed out, vocals. But there’s a group called Chromatic. They’ve done couple of good covers, but they have, uh, it’s called Into the Black. It’s Neil Young. Uh, it cover,

alexi: 1:45:42Okay.

Glen Erickson: 1:45:43the, Hey, hey, my, my

alexi: 1:45:45Oh yeah.

Glen Erickson: 1:45:46Um, and it’s like totally not Neil Young-ish. It’s like.

alexi: 1:45:51Okay.

Glen Erickson: 1:45:52I find it beautiful. And if I was picking like Desert Island songs, that song might make it on there.’cause I never get sick of playing it. But I’ve got this massive list of covers and it grows all the time. So maybe we’ll do an exploration sometime. But I

alexi: 1:46:09Yeah.

Glen Erickson: 1:46:10in light of, what I find most funny about the reality singing contests is that it’s all just cover music and,

alexi: 1:46:17Yeah,

Glen Erickson: 1:46:18It’d be fun to just chat about. But yeah, maybe we’ll do that someday.

alexi: 1:46:21we have to. Yeah.

Glen Erickson: 1:46:23Okay.

alexi: 1:46:24Okay.

Glen Erickson: 1:46:25Okay, well thanks for your time as always.

alexi: 1:46:27Yes.

Glen Erickson: 1:46:28Appreciate it.

alexi: 1:46:29Mm-hmm.

Glen Erickson: 1:46:29back again next week.

alexi: 1:46:31Yeah. Okay. Thanks for having me. Bye. Love you.